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[Winter] Attack Cruisers

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Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2012-09-18 15:15:07 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
No love for medium rails?



Agreed, those things are still hard to fit, cap intensive, and terribad tracking :(

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MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#82 - 2012-09-18 15:18:54 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
No love for medium rails?



Agreed, those things are still hard to fit, cap intensive, and terribad tracking :(


And laugh if you even mention the word Damage

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
cool4nd
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#83 - 2012-09-18 15:19:38 UTC
Regarding Omen & Thorax

The Omen & Thorax still cant fit 1600mm plate without tons of fitting mods, which makes them only having 30%-40% of the HP of a buffer BC. You can make them as fast as you want, with such little HP and price is same region of a BCs these cruiser still have no purpose in the game, as BC will still do everything better.
Addionally Omen will suffer hard on capacitor, with ROF sucking cap like crazy.
Removing the cap bonus from Thorax and giving it the 4th medium slot for cap booster is really strange, as you are forced to have a cap booster now always.
McBrideCZ
Industrial Mining and Mayhem
Sigma Grindset
#84 - 2012-09-18 15:27:39 UTC
Yes, yes and yes!

All changes are really good but only thing that bothers me is speed balance:

Omen: 225 m/s
Caracal: 225 m/s
Thorax: 235 m/s
Stabber: 285 m/s

Is there any particular reason why Stabber should be 25% faster?
Stabber now basicly have 3 bonuses (25% speed + both gun bonuses). I would welcome + 15-20 m/s on Omen, Caracal and Thorax. After all, they are attack cruiser....
Kesthely
Mestana
#85 - 2012-09-18 15:28:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesthely
At first glance i really loved each and every one of them. Unfortunatly then i read the missile rebalance.
With these combinations of buffs and debuffs i can easily get the Omen and Thorax to the same range as a caracal, but apply about 100-150 dps more

I agree that some heavy missile boats deserve a nerf (most notably the Drake, nighthawk, tengu) but this nerf makes other Heavy missile boats like the caracal, new Bellicose, the rook, the cerberus a little weak in comparison to other long range cruisers.

The biggest reason to this is the fact that Missile boats don't have an equivallent of Tracking computers or Tracking enhancers and thus needed there base range to be higher.

So can you please check if the -25% range and -20% damage is really in line with the other redesigned cruisers?

Edit: I stand corrected with the TC and TE's (Pfew!)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#86 - 2012-09-18 15:29:56 UTC
cool4nd wrote:
Regarding Omen & Thorax

The Omen & Thorax still cant fit 1600mm plate without tons of fitting mods, which makes them only having 30%-40% of the HP of a buffer BC. You can make them as fast as you want, with such little HP and price is same region of a BCs these cruiser still have no purpose in the game, as BC will still do everything better.
Addionally Omen will suffer hard on capacitor, with ROF sucking cap like crazy.
Removing the cap bonus from Thorax and giving it the 4th medium slot for cap booster is really strange, as you are forced to have a cap booster now always.



Just wait for the massive BC nerf that is surely coming (right?)
Grideris
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2012-09-18 15:31:04 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
At first glance i really loved each and every one of them. Unfortunatly then i read the missile rebalance.
With these combinations of buffs and debuffs i can easily get the Omen and Thorax to the same range as a caracal, but apply about 100-150 dps more

I agree that some heavy missile boats deserve a nerf (most notably the Drake, nighthawk, tengu) but this nerf makes other Heavy missile boats like the caracal, new Bellicose, the rook, the cerberus a little weak in comparison to other long range cruisers.

The biggest reason to this is the fact that Missile boats don't have an equivallent of Tracking computers or Tracking enhancers and thus needed there base range to be higher.

So can you please check if the -25% range and -20% damage is really in line with the other redesigned cruisers with keeping in mind of the reduced possiblities of upgradeing there range


You must have missed the part where they said that TCs and TEs now increase Missile range. I recommend you go back and read the bottom of that post in the other thread.

http://www.dust514.org - the unofficial forum for everything DUST 514 http://www.dust514base.com -** the** blog site with everything else DUST 514 you need
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#88 - 2012-09-18 15:31:40 UTC
With some very rough numbers you should be able to fit a full rack of FMP IIs, Meta MWD, T2 Disruptor, T2 Small cap booster, meta 4 1600mmplate, ANP II, 3 heat sinks, DCU II all with 1 Ancillary Current Router, leaving room for 2 armor rigs giving you 30+k ehp and around 500+ dps (or you can trade tank for gank) with significant better speed and cap than before.

No solid numbers but it should be pretty close.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#89 - 2012-09-18 15:33:03 UTC
Kesthely wrote:

The biggest reason to this is the fact that Missile boats don't have an equivallent of Tracking computers or Tracking enhancers and thus needed there base range to be higher.



CCP Fozzie wrote:

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time (with optimal range script)
Explosion radius and explosion velocity (with tracking speed script)
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed disruption script lowers explosion velocity and explosion radius
Optimal range disruption script lowers flight time


EDIT : damn too slow
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-09-18 15:34:39 UTC
Caracalal is going to be nice with hams and te/bcs + no more penalties to sig or speed on t2 ammo.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#91 - 2012-09-18 15:39:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
cool4nd wrote:
Regarding Omen & Thorax

The Omen & Thorax still cant fit 1600mm plate without tons of fitting mods


Winter Omen can fit Focused Medium Pulse, MWD, small cap booster, meta 1600mm plate, other reasonable stuff, with one PG mod.

Which kinda sucks when you forget how bad the Omen already is, for this reason: it's only like 60 PG short. If Focused Medium Pulse had gotten the 10% PG reduction that Heavy Pulse got, you could get by with a 3% PG implant.

I'm having to do the math myself for the 5% PG reduction on the guns, though, and might've gotten it wrong, but 1600mm fits with one ACR rig even using the current fitting stats for the guns.

What it can't do is fit laser rigs and 1600mm plate.

EDIT: heh, beaten to this point.
Wivabel
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2012-09-18 15:43:45 UTC
yes accept the fact that its 1600 plate or go home. Balance around this or give us a good reason to use a damn 800.

I am not sure if I am going to log in anymore.......
Doddy
Excidium.
#93 - 2012-09-18 15:44:38 UTC
Thorax is a bit underwhelming to be honest, i would think a utility high or an additional low slot would be better than extra med, unless we are all just going to continue on the merry way to LSE online.
Klown Walk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-09-18 15:45:41 UTC
Will you add cruisers with a bonus to active tanking? I don't want to buffer tank everything.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2012-09-18 15:53:42 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Hoarr wrote:
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. These changes look awesome. It's good to see the omen getting some much needed love.

The Omens the change I really like. Thorax too but I would prefer an extra low over the Shield Fit everyone will be flying. Give it some good Dmg as an Armor setup.


But this way you can do dual prop! which might be kinda cool

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#96 - 2012-09-18 15:55:40 UTC
Wivabel wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Wivabel wrote:
Not happy with the thorax. With an 800 plate I can fit only IONs with a 1600 plate I cant even fit electrons without fitting mods. On the shield side it barely fits with the lack of cpu. looks like you will not have tank or gank on this ship at the moment.


Did you take into account the 25% engineering bonus to PG and the 25% electronics bonus to cpu, as well as weapon upgrades and AWU?




Yep with max skills



Right in Fozzie's original post it says:

Quote:
...you can still buffer tank them decently if you downgrade guns.


So what you're saying sounds like 'working as intended'. These are the attack cruisers. Putting 1600mm plates on a thorax would be the equivalent of... what? 400mm on an Atron? I submit that that's not what this line of ships is for, with this update. Moderate armor buffer (or an armor rep setup if Fozzie's comments from Bringing Solo Back #20 go through and active-rep ships stop being slow) with Ions, or shield, Neutrons, DCU, damage, and nanos.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2012-09-18 15:57:28 UTC
I for one welcome our new drone-spamming Omen overlords.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#98 - 2012-09-18 16:00:20 UTC
i think i am giong to use this setup:

200 rails with jav

10 mn mwd

20 km point

two large sheild extenders

then 3 mag stabs

2 tracking enhancers

3 shield extending rigs

5 ecm 300

5 warrior II

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Martin0
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-09-18 16:04:37 UTC
The thorax need more powergrid or everyone wll just shield tank it.
NOW it need a Ancillary current router to fit electrons and a 1600, if you want to ions and a 800 you still have fitting problems, with four mids a shield tank is best.
I too would shield tank it and i hate shieldsSad
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#100 - 2012-09-18 16:06:02 UTC
These things are supposed to be fast,

Stop complaining your god damn 1600´s wont fit ffs..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish