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[Updated][Winter] Missile Rebalance 2.0 + Hurricane tweak

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muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2012-09-18 15:50:55 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHA

another nerf Lol

first where supers...
then titans...
then lets kill otec and nerf tec...
now lets kill the drake blob, the welpcanes blob and all tengus blob (what a coincidence, all ship doctrines the CFC uses in mass, lol, pure coincidence of course, no tinfoil teories here)

This just make my work day

Can you see we are like the Borg, we will just adapt and tomorrow we will just use "put be best low cost ship name vs dps ratio here" to blob all our enemies again and again and again!

...and 6 months from now we will all be here nerfing that ship and/or weapon system we will be using at that time...

You can try but you can't stop the blob !

Fake edit: I can see all carriers beeing nerfed next.... "no sentry drones for you"Lol


I hope you packed an umbrella and tissues

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"
Lin Fatale
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2012-09-18 15:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin Fatale
Drake:
You killing one of the last usefull caldari ships
- range nerf ok maybe, but the more important problem is the tengu here and not the drake
- dmg nerf not, drake dmg is already low

Cane:
kill the last usefull roaming bc


CCP which BC do you recommend for romings in your super blobby fail sovmechanic universe?
Corteztkiller
Trivium
#203 - 2012-09-18 15:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Corteztkiller
I'm actually largely fighting against drakes so this nerf means good things for me but I actually think it's a little too rough on drakes. So many people use them for PVE and heavy missiles aren't exactly damage machines. Drakes are good for the CFC and HBC because they can be perma mwded and have huge shield buffer, paired with great range.

I think a little less of a damage loss would be fair. Mind you with TE's and TC's affecting missiles maybe assault missiles will be more useful.

So basically the TLDR is that my gut reaction is the damage nerf is too much 5 or 10% paired with the range nerf seems fair. Then maybe make it harder to mount a decent tank on a perma MWD drake. That would be a better nerf.

Edit: PS thank the lord I don't own any tengu's right now....price drop
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#204 - 2012-09-18 15:53:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Ravcharas wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?)

Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm.


On my shield tanking ship with 2 slots left over for ewar, one of them is a disruptor, the other one is a web...yeah, i can fit all of those! There is a reason missile ships werent supposed to be affected by TDs and it's because as mostly shield tanks, they don't have ROOM to fit stuff that can fight back, whereas armor ships have 3,4 slots for ewar defence!

As well, if you are a turret boat, if you are getting your tracking disrupted, you can just minimize transversal to hit for your full DPS. With missiles, you cant ever do anything to fix your explosion radius/velocity, except use a TP. It's basically like "You can't do your maximum DPS anymore if I TD you". That's stupid, specific piloting should be able to combat ewar (Getting close up/minimizing transversal)

People are saying "oh, just fit a TC and then you nullify the effect of the TD on you!" Yeah, because my shield tanking missile ship needs another mid slot ewar defence as it is! I already can't fit ECCM, Painters, TDs, or anything else, because I need a slot for a disruptor, web, and MWD! That means the minimum of 6 slots to fit a 3-slot tank and 3 slot ewar is not enough to combat ewar or fight back in any way. Adding TCs to that makes combating ewar on a missile boat even more of a pain!

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#205 - 2012-09-18 15:53:25 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.

Unless beams and projectiles are suddenly modified to be somehow "deflected" by smart bombs, HMLs will become 100% useless in fleet sized warfare.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#206 - 2012-09-18 15:55:31 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?)

Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm.


On my shield tanking ship with 2 slots left over for ewar, one of them is a disruptor, the other one is a web...yeah, i can fit all of those! There is a reason missile ships werent supposed to be affected by TDs and it's because as mostly shield tanks, they don't have ROOM to fit stuff that can fight back, whereas armor ships have 3,4 slots for ewar defence!

As well, if you are a turret boat, if you are getting your tracking disrupted, you can just minimize transversal to hit for your full DPS. With missiles, you cant ever do anything to fix your explosion radius/velocity, except use a TP. It's basically like "You can't do your maximum DPS anymore if I TD you". That's stupid, specific piloting should be able to combat ewar (Getting close up/minimizing transversal)

People are saying "oh, just fit a TC and then you nullify the effect of the TD on you!" Yeah, because my shield tanking missile ship needs another mid slot ewar defence as it is! I already can't fit ECCM, Painters, TDs, or anything else, because I need a slot for a disruptor, web, and MWD! That means the minimum of 6 slots to fit a 3-slot tank and 3 slot ewar is not enough to combat ewar or fight back in any way. Adding TCs to that makes combating ewar on a missile boat even more of a pain!


m8 you just need to bring more ships than they have tracking disruptors. Eveiseasy
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#207 - 2012-09-18 15:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
now in a more serious note...

Quote:
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.


I should be able to fit turrents 720 without having to be max skilled in power and use implants. I understand the nerf need, but maybe you can use this nerf to review the medium artillery PW needs ?????

Quote:
Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.


why a damage reduction of 20% and not 10% or 15%, what was your main line of though and calculations that lead to this final number?

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#208 - 2012-09-18 15:55:44 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Ravcharas wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?)

Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm.


Do you really think that a tracking computer counters a tracking disruptor?


PS. Show me the shield cane fit with a tracking computer and a web.

It sure mitigates it.

Another counter could be to bring a friend with tracking links. Hue hue.
Sellendis
The Ares project
#209 - 2012-09-18 15:56:59 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Sellendis wrote:
One working weapon system nerfed with range and dmg? Ok, what do we get in return?
Can we get 20% DPS and range buff for minmatar ACs? It would only be fair.
You might have a future at CCP. You should put in an application.



Well, some buff to most under-used race in PvP would be nice.
Did anyone even see a minmatar BC or Comm. ship in the AT X?
They need some love, and no, i am not just saying this couse i have AC trained to hell.

I dont think Heavys need a nerf this strong, nerf range...ok.
Nerf dmg by 20% is WTF? How is that balancing when blasters were almost useless and a minor buff of 5% makes them ok, but this deserves range and dmg nerf of 20% each....i dont see the logic here.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#210 - 2012-09-18 15:56:59 UTC
Doddy wrote:
What does ccp have against the nighthawk is the real question, 2 hml bonuses lol. Such an awesome looking ship too ...... shame.


They havent reached t2 BC yetBlink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#211 - 2012-09-18 15:57:56 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:


why a damage reduction of 20% and not 10% or 15%, what was your main line of though and calculations that lead to this final number?


Ahem.
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#212 - 2012-09-18 15:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord MuffloN
Misanth wrote:
Making TD's work against missiles is a major mistake too btw. I like the idea of having a TD-ish mechanic work against missiles, that is not a bad thing per se. But when you make missiles affected by TD then you have a nobrainer to fit TD on every ship that has midslots to spare.

Now picture this; which race has the most mids to spare? Gallente. They also happen to be short range (blaster and drones). when TD will affect all weapontypes, Gallente will just force people to go up close or run. It's a bit too early to paint doomsday scenarios, but this could very well rupture the whole game in the nationality balance. I don't mind flying drone boats myself, my Gallente skills are top notch, but it's worrying overall if the devs just don't even think about this on such an early state of development process, to be honest. Make a new module, TD-ish, that counters missiles, and you got my love, that's a whole different story.



You and I seem to have very, very different versions of Gallente ships, sure, it'll be a boon to the drone boats (and you can't seriously say they don't deserve it), but the blaster hulls all already have required mids, scram, web, injector and mwd, now tell me, how many blaster hulls have more than 4 mids? Not many, Myrmidon, Dominix and the Hyperion I believe, and out of them the only pure blaster boat is the hyperion, which in turn have a lot of other issues, that said, my Dominix just became a ultra violent psycopathic murderer instead of a violent psycopathic murderer, if I choose to skip the ECCM or other, oh god, I'll have to make choices, no more cookie cutter builds, my god, it's almost interesting again!
Vicar2008
MCMLXXVI
#213 - 2012-09-18 15:58:36 UTC
Yeah come to think of it, the majority of the Caldari Cruiser, and Battlecruisers team ahave been benched according to CCP. The Naga and Rokh are the only two decent ships Caldari have left, the majority of their frigates suck also, apart from the Merlin, its still a brawler :D
Kriorth
Deadspace Knights
#214 - 2012-09-18 15:59:10 UTC
This is the sort of idiocy that makes me wonder why people bother to play this game.


My character was never trained for missiles... I looked into the options and decided it was worth spending MONTHS training the skills because it was worth it. Now CCP decides to make them worthless....

I have no problem with them tweaking the game when they need to in order to balance things, but Now that they took away the reason to train missiles skills they should be required to refund my training time.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#215 - 2012-09-18 15:59:45 UTC
Terrorina wrote:
Seriously nerfing HML's as a whole is way too excessive. What about us null-sec ratters who have come to rely on the Tengu because it is the only somewhat effective ship to make money while the low-high sec guys get to play FW and incursions for big isks.

I agree Drakes have become too OP for a BC ship and they should have their bonus's reduced or changed accordingly but nerfing HML's entirely is like chopping off an arm because of a broken finger.

If you're going to change them anyway, at least for the love of god give us null-sec grunts a way to make some decent money. You've already nerfed tech, which is fine.. but you didn't replace it with a bottom up way for us grunts to make money (and please don't say sigs, i'm not flying around for hours in the hopes to find a decent site and then hoping a ton of other people haven't found it first in the hopes that I have a slim chance of getting a module that is worth something if I can survive hauling it to Jita).


It's not just null sec ratters who will feel the pinch, CCP has been talking about reducing NPC bounties for a while to. Lots of people (like me) kill rats with heavy missles, this will affect EVERY caldari HML using PVE player (namely mission runners)

Maybe eve to the point where Mission ad anomaly running Tengus might just get replaced by Tracking Computer +Tracking Speed scripted + tracking enhancer + target paineter Cruise Navy Ravens.

As SOON as these changes go live on the test server I'm buying ever single Tracking Computer in jita :)
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#216 - 2012-09-18 16:00:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
At which point do you factor in the fact that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) have travel times and that missiles (unlike beams and projectiles) can be destroyed by smart bombs.



Lol Have you ever seen that actually done?

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2012-09-18 16:00:48 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:

250mm Railgun II with Spike:>Needs buff, medium rails are the most useless thing in the game currently.
DPS: 20
Alpha: 92
Optimal: 65 km
Falloff: 15 km
Cap/sec: -1.1
PG: 187.2
CPU: 31.5
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora:>Needs buff, probably will get one cause they suck
DPS: 21
Alpha: 91
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 10 km
Cap/sec: -3.8
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 27.8
Time to hit: instant

720mm Artillery II with Tremor:
DPS: 17
Alpha: 242
Optimal: 54 km
Falloff: 22 km
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5)
CPU: 24
Time to hit: instant

Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge:
DPS: 23 (previously 29)
Alpha: 189 (previously 237)
Range: 63 km (previously 84)
Cap/sec: 0
PG: 94.5
CPU: 41.3
Time to hit: 10 seconds

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


fixed

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#218 - 2012-09-18 16:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanaka Aiko
huuu wait both a range AND a damage reduction for heavy missiles ? isn't that a bit too much at the same time ?
and 20% o_O

I hope the damage increase on fury will mitigate that a lot... cause this seems like too big a nerf.
i'm okay will losing some range, cause honestly they have too much, but losing range and damage at the same time, and for this much... that's too much :/

you should only tweak the numbers a bit for now, and with for full BC rebalance to change more these, cause nerfing hurricane and drakes/tengu for that much for 3 months ago will have a lot of repercussion on farming and pvp on high low null and wh...
Lord MuffloN
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#219 - 2012-09-18 16:01:17 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.


Your analysis doesnt include that HMLs dont do full damage to frigates and cruisers (or particularly fast BCs even), regardless of how you pilot.


Because medium railguns, arties or beams always do full damage to frigs and cruisers right? There isn't any random element to it eit... oh...
Doddy
Excidium.
#220 - 2012-09-18 16:01:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Doddy wrote:
What does ccp have against the nighthawk is the real question, 2 hml bonuses lol. Such an awesome looking ship too ...... shame.


They havent reached t2 BC yetBlink


Nighthawk is already horribly underpowered compared to drake/tengu, 6 months waiting for a t2 bc balancing expansion will kill it off entirely.