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FW: rebalancing NPCs and you

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#441 - 2012-09-13 21:59:52 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Without doing more than skim the rest of the thread (sorry) a couple of points:

1: Plex's should never be able to be done solo. Instead of removing NPC EW effects, they should have been balanced to be equally effective for all races. There is far too much solo farming going on currently.



The problem is the farming not the solo. If you want to do group farming you can do high sec missions. Faction war plexes should be about frequent quality pvp without the blobs.

Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.

Ranger 1 wrote:

2: Missions should never be able to be solo'd by a frigate (not even a stealth bomber) save for possibly level 1 missions. It is far too easy to evade gate camps in a single frig and does nothing but promote solo farming of the system. Larger ships needing to travel behind enemy lines would change the dynamic (and level of cooperation necessary) by quite a bit.


Not really. MWD cloak and you can bring a battleship just about anywhere in low sec.

Missions are pretty much fine with the exception that they should have their payouts nerfed, if plexing becomes more of a pvp activity.


Ranger 1 wrote:

3: Currently players find themselves in positions where they are threatened or war dec'd for taking enemy systems... by their own fellow militia members... because leaving them "vulnerable" makes farming easier. This situation absolutely must change, even if it involves making NPC kills pay zero loyalty points and upping the rewards for killing opposing militia members. If you want to limit people abusing this, place a limit of one LP payout per day for killing a particular character. You could also consider LP payouts not for taking plexes, but for taking systems.



I'm not sure what the issue is here. Yes there is currently a strategy on how a militias flip systems. So yeah if a corp purposely screws the rest of the militia they will be unpopular. Unless you want to make it so there is no strategy or planning involved, this will always be the case.

The proposed changes to the tier system do tend to make it so there is no strategy or planning involved in faction war. But I don't really think that is a good thing. Just sort of dumbs it down.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Valkyriy
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#442 - 2012-09-14 09:36:07 UTC
let rouge drones drop metal scraps or ammo atleast
Rengerel en Distel
#443 - 2012-09-14 12:14:12 UTC
Valkyriy wrote:
let rouge drones drop metal scraps or ammo atleast


i think you're just trolling now.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#444 - 2012-09-17 07:04:53 UTC
This guy has it right.

Variety is good. Timer/hubs should be randomly placed within the plex. Rats should have variety. etc...

Timers are immersion breaking. Completion of tasks is not.

LP bumping a hub is immersion breaking. Benefits based on activity - locals help you (not just anybody) out in return for your service - is not.

Hiro Protagonisti wrote:
The FW system lacks immersion.
...stuff...
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#445 - 2012-09-17 20:47:55 UTC
Non-immersion breaking defensive plexing:

Defensive plexing involves "shoring up" the defenses of a Navy base of operations. These could include remote repping NPC hulls to get them to their full strength, or perhaps load up missile silos so they can shoot. Once these things are done, the base is fully operational and will help slowly decontest the system as long as it is alive. More reinforcement means decontesting happens more quickly.

Practically what this means is that one player can potentially "reinforce" a series of Navy "bases of operation" and have them help "secure" numerous systems. If there is no attack, system eventually gets decontested - as it should be. These bases of operation are there to help secure the system. No attack on them means they are doing their job.

Non-immersion breaking offensive plexing:

Offensive plexing involves destroying all of the (or a few key) NPCs in a plex. There could be several waves of NPCs to slow the process down a bit in the hopes that fights will happen. System continues to be contested until next Navy base of operation respawns. At that point the system will not be more or less contested since the base of operations is not functional.

Offensive vs. Defensive Balance:

Defense should involve both securing plexes as well as actively defending them. Rate of securing a system would necessarily be slower than rate of contesting a system in order to favor the attacker. The risk here is that the rate of deconesting may be "too fast" to allow for any attacking force to ever hope to win a system, and deconesting "too slowly" puts a system at too much risk when the defenders can't cover a time zone.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#446 - 2012-09-30 16:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Had a discussion with Ty Delaney about this and we sparked an idea...


Take the Faction Warfare missions and use the Epic Arc system to create a few once a day Epic arcs. You can have multiple agents start them or have different agents start different epic arcs, etc.

The point is, that when you pick up the FW Mission Arcs, you go through and run the missions until you finish the sites, and then you can go back and start one the next day. It can have a few Arcs so that it's not always the same, with decisions, but it pushes a storyline (nice for noobs) and it somewhat paces the amount of missions people can do. Which is better than the infinite amount of missions that can be pumped out.

Still profitable? Yes, just not abusable.

As well, if you make a few simple epic arc storylines for L1 to L4 missions, you can use the remote completion of missions (Rather than having to fly back) to collect rewards, perhaps some choices etc.

Unlike the current "Epic arcs" there would not necessarily be a big reward at the end, or the majority of the reward can be at the end of the epic arc rather than in the middle along the way, forcing people to complete to get the big payouts rather than random cash outs that can be abused as right now.

The whole philosophy would work better to bring the FW missions back in line.

Where I am.
Ty Delaney
Gambit Roulette
#447 - 2012-10-02 17:45:45 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

FW COMPLEX CHANGES


Anyone know if these changes are live over on Bucky or Sisi?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#448 - 2012-10-03 19:20:42 UTC
This is a bit of a seperate issue, so I moved the topic to its own thread. But if any of you have an opinion on "diagonal plexing" I've started a discussion thread over here.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#449 - 2012-10-03 19:21:34 UTC
Ty Delaney wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

FW COMPLEX CHANGES


Anyone know if these changes are live over on Bucky or Sisi?



Not that I'm aware. If anyone notices them, please share! otherwise none of the FW changes are on the test servers yet to my knowledge.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#450 - 2012-10-03 19:38:00 UTC
....and one more thread to house the discussion surrounding dockblocking.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#451 - 2012-10-03 19:43:27 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.


No it wont since all systems wil be defended by permarunning mwd frigate keeping the timer stopped 300km off until attacker gets bored and leaves the plex.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#452 - 2012-10-03 22:05:11 UTC
Yuri Intaki wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.


No it wont since all systems wil be defended by permarunning mwd frigate keeping the timer stopped 300km off until attacker gets bored and leaves the plex.


The feedback against this mechanic was almost universally negative, I told CCP it was a bad idea, and I'd be VERY surprised to see it make it into the final release at this point.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Dan Carter Murray
#453 - 2012-10-04 04:03:13 UTC
this forum is stickied so i'm posting this here:

i like the npc changes.

i would like you to look at further changes below with regard to plexing and lp:

  • lp in plexes does not promote pvp and therefore lp from plexing should be removed

  • lp in plexes promotes farming and i'm sure the non-farming FW community would like to know how many farm fit ships have been killed since inferno along with how many farm fit ships have completed sites and how much lp was created using farm fits

  • lp from ship and pod kills including cargo in rookie ships should remain (put it back!)

  • lp from missions should remain because it's not the easiest thing on earth to run missions on an alt with a stabbed merlin

  • remove the 5 tier system and replace with 3 tier system where tier 1 is pre-inferno, tier 2 is 5% less than pre-inferno, and tier 3 is 10% less than pre-inferno

  • tier is 100% based on systems owned, including vulnerable systems

  • keep docking restrictions as they are now (as Zarnak said, "it raises the stakes")

  • look at improving system upgrades to further promote trade, industry, etc.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#454 - 2012-10-04 12:53:46 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Yuri Intaki wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Increasing the role of npcs in the war is a step in the wrong direction. CCPs proposed changes are good because they make it so the players decide the outcome of the battles not the npcs.


No it wont since all systems wil be defended by permarunning mwd frigate keeping the timer stopped 300km off until attacker gets bored and leaves the plex.


The feedback against this mechanic was almost universally negative, I told CCP it was a bad idea, and I'd be VERY surprised to see it make it into the final release at this point.


Except CCP and their devs are more clueless about reality of FW than a tea leaf has about history of East India Company (Sorry for quoting DA) and I am willing to bet everything they outlined for FW changes will happen 100% and you will cheer on because ultimately it will benefit your side since you have more farmers with vested interest for it to happen.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#455 - 2012-10-04 23:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
CCP Ytterbium wrote:


* Complex size and name changes: medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed)



no NO NO NO are you seruios? what the hell are you guys revamping t1 cruisers for? SHOW? your just turning medium plexs into tengu jerk off sessions and o hi you think this is a fair fight decloak 2 falcons.

the whole attration to fw is the medium plex t1 cruiser and navy cruiser fights, not its legendary even scaled gate fights (which their are none)

you need to have a few size plexs for mediums TBH

1 for t1 cruisers and navy
1 for t3,t2,t1 cruisers and navy

thats how it should be.

DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE you WILL KILL FW and your upcoming ZOMG t1 cruiser revamp.

this is faction warfare and it should be about FACTION SHIPS

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#456 - 2012-10-05 00:45:39 UTC
Basically, the two biggest problems (week-old T1 farmer alts and the abuse of faction standings) appear to be resolved by the upcoming changes.

However, several of the proposed changes are very poorly thought-out and will effectively break FW Plexing:

Quote:
* Increase contested range: at the moment an hostile pilot will only contest a capture timer if he is within capture range (whose reach varies depending on the point above). We want to move the contested area to the whole complex range, which would mean as long as hostile pilot is within your room the capture timer would be paused.


TERRIBLE idea.

This would invariably lead to defensive plexes being perma-trolled by MWD Condor alts orbiting at 150km.

Quote:
* Capture beacon location: first, we want to move the capture beacon closer to the room entrance (0-10km instead of 60-70km) to promote fights next to the acceleration gate exit point and being able to intercept incoming hostiles more easily.


TERRIBLE idea.

The last thing players want is to have their ranged ship dumped at scram range to the button and it doesn't give plex-runners enough time to react to inbound hostiles.

Moving the warp-in to 50km from the button would help, especially as the 30km capture radius allows defenders to cap while 21km from warp-in.


Quote:
* Complex size and name changes: current complex sizes are confusing as some major sites have no acceleration gates, while others do. Plan is to revamp sites to 4 sizes: rookie (only tech 1 frigates allowed, no navy, pirate or tech 2 variant), small (all small ships, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - essentially all frigates and destroyers), medium (all cruisers, including navy, pirate and tech 2 variants - battlecruiser variants are not allowed) and large (unrestricted access).


TERRIBLE idea.


'Medium' plexes would be a a magnet for Logi/Falcon faggotry, while (farcially) not allowing the BCs required to counter them.

'Rookie' plexes would force people to ship down to T1 frigs they might not even own, instead of the faction frigs and destroyers that are typically part of a small gang.

No. Just no.
Dan Carter Murray
#457 - 2012-10-06 23:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dan Carter Murray
Are the absolutely 100% stupid changes to plexes a 'go' for December?

edit:

@CCP in general. you seem to improve one thing and completely **** up another. who is the mastermind behind all of this stupidity? if there are two masterminds well then keep the one that fixes things and fire the moron who ****s up things.

Alternatively, have NPC stations sell T2 cruisers at T1 prices since apparently that's the only thing that's going to be used from December until you fix the idiocy which you will create by allowing ALL cruisers into medium plexes.

Alternatively to the statement above, just go ahead and scratch all your plans to "fix" cruisers because NONE of them are going to be viable for any plexing in FW.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Lili Lu
#458 - 2012-10-07 00:22:32 UTC
Posting to support the growing chorus singing:

DON"T CHANGE THE CURRENT PLEX SIZES AND SHIP RESTRICTIONS

FFS, CCP that is one of the good things you did with your FW revamp. Now you are going to **** up the good along with trying to fix the bad? It makes no sense.Ugh
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#459 - 2012-10-07 12:25:49 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Are the absolutely 100% stupid changes to plexes a 'go' for December?

edit:

@CCP in general. you seem to improve one thing and completely **** up another. who is the mastermind behind all of this stupidity? if there are two masterminds well then keep the one that fixes things and fire the moron who ****s up things.

Alternatively, have NPC stations sell T2 cruisers at T1 prices since apparently that's the only thing that's going to be used from December until you fix the idiocy which you will create by allowing ALL cruisers into medium plexes.

Alternatively to the statement above, just go ahead and scratch all your plans to "fix" cruisers because NONE of them are going to be viable for any plexing in FW.


I whole-heartedly support the immediate dismissal of CCP Moron.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#460 - 2012-10-07 12:59:15 UTC
It's funny how bad you all are. I just get the impression that you all fly overpowered pirate faction ships and don't know how to use the scanner.