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DAE think Mineral Compression Should be Nerfed?
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Sigras
Conglomo
#1 - 2012-09-17 10:15:11 UTC
I just learned how ridiculous mineral compression is and I now think that this (and the fact that titans make 0.0 logistics a cake walk) is the reason for supercapital proliferation.

I just discovered how crazy mineral compression actually is, and this is terrible.

There is a certain module that takes 34x more m^3 in minerals than the module it makes.

That means that by manufacturing these, you can compress the 47 million m^3 of base materials (trit mex etc) needed to build a titan (around 50 freighters worth of minerals) down to 1.5 million m^3 or so, less than 2 freighter runs . . .

This seems wrong to me; this makes it a trivial matter to bring in the materials for a titan, and I would bet this is why we see so many of them

Supercarriers are even worse, as the majority of the materials in them can be brought in with a single jump freighter . . .

Two things need to happen:

1. remove the ability of freighters to use titan bridges
2. make modules size proportional to the size of the materials that go in them

I bet we'd see the number of free build slots in high sec double, and the number of supercap births cut in half.

Thoughts?
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#2 - 2012-09-17 10:31:53 UTC
0.0 logistics is anything but a cakewalk

I personally don't see the problem.

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Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#3 - 2012-09-17 10:38:03 UTC
If they do that, then they need to greatly improve the output of lowend minerals in 0.0. Also logistics especially in deep null is not as easy as it seems.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-09-17 16:24:26 UTC
Sigras wrote:
There is a certain module that takes 34x more m^3 in minerals than the module it makes.

When reprocessed, metal scraps yield 500x their volume in tritanium. Reinforced metal scraps, 2500x (they drop from rats in wormholes and can only be sold via contracts). They're so common that most folks leave them on wrecks.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-09-17 17:05:28 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I just learned how ridiculous mineral compression is and I now think that this (and the fact that titans make 0.0 logistics a cake walk) is the reason for supercapital proliferation.



I though that too then I actually rad a bit more about it and found out it's not really true.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-09-17 17:29:40 UTC
Huttan Funaila wrote:
Sigras wrote:
There is a certain module that takes 34x more m^3 in minerals than the module it makes.

When reprocessed, metal scraps yield 500x their volume in tritanium. Reinforced metal scraps, 2500x (they drop from rats in wormholes and can only be sold via contracts). They're so common that most folks leave them on wrecks.



What you're missing though is you can't manufacture these items so it is not "mineral compression". Mineral compression involves manufacturing an item with minerals you want to transport where as metal scraps are items that are dropped that people then resell.

Also these two items when re-processed only yield trit so they are not helpful for any other mineral.

I do agree with you, it is really stupid that an item when reprocessed would yield more m3 then the item before reprocessing, Every item when reprocessed should have some degree of degradation and it should be random as it is in the real world.
Sigras
Conglomo
#7 - 2012-09-18 01:14:30 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I just learned how ridiculous mineral compression is and I now think that this (and the fact that titans make 0.0 logistics a cake walk) is the reason for supercapital proliferation.



I though that too then I actually rad a bit more about it and found out it's not really true.

care to enlighten the rest of the class?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#8 - 2012-09-18 01:40:53 UTC
Sigras wrote:
2. make modules size proportional to the size of the materials that go in them

I take it you missed the great mineral compression nerf.

CCP Chronotis wrote:
Currently, there are a number of items whose total volume of required ingredients are many times that of the resulting product. This leads to imbalanced compression rates as high as 430:1, such as the 1,000m3 Jump Portal Generator, a module requiring 430,000m3 of minerals to make. Upon completion, these modules would be transported to a new location and reprocessed with nearly zero waste, thus allowing the transport of a Freighter load of minerals with an Industrial.


Now it is mainly only 425mm rails.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#9 - 2012-09-18 03:24:01 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I just learned how ridiculous mineral compression is and I now think that this (and the fact that titans make 0.0 logistics a cake walk) is the reason for supercapital proliferation.

I just discovered how crazy mineral compression actually is, and this is terrible.

There is a certain module that takes 34x more m^3 in minerals than the module it makes.

That means that by manufacturing these, you can compress the 47 million m^3 of base materials (trit mex etc) needed to build a titan (around 50 freighters worth of minerals) down to 1.5 million m^3 or so, less than 2 freighter runs . . .

This seems wrong to me; this makes it a trivial matter to bring in the materials for a titan, and I would bet this is why we see so many of them

Supercarriers are even worse, as the majority of the materials in them can be brought in with a single jump freighter . . .

Two things need to happen:

1. remove the ability of freighters to use titan bridges
2. make modules size proportional to the size of the materials that go in them

I bet we'd see the number of free build slots in high sec double, and the number of supercap births cut in half.

Thoughts?



Mineral compression is not just used for supers. Go move into deep nullsec before bitching about somthing, Beeing on the ass edge of empire and nullsec like you guys are compared to other alliances really doesnt give you the full experience. Ever tried to upgrade a station without compressing minerals and shipping down to nullsec? Ever tried to build a station in nullsec? Ever tried to build a station in empire then ship to nullsec without titan bridges? Ever produced a massive ammount of BS's for fleets to use? Im guess no since your ignorance shows in your post.
Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
#10 - 2012-09-18 04:59:17 UTC
Sigras
Conglomo
#11 - 2012-09-18 06:23:29 UTC
Zetaomega333 wrote:
Mineral compression is not just used for supers. Go move into deep nullsec before bitching about somthing, Beeing on the ass edge of empire and nullsec like you guys are compared to other alliances really doesnt give you the full experience. Ever tried to upgrade a station without compressing minerals and shipping down to nullsec? Ever tried to build a station in nullsec? Ever tried to build a station in empire then ship to nullsec without titan bridges? Ever produced a massive ammount of BS's for fleets to use? Im guess no since your ignorance shows in your post.

you mean like people did in 2005 all the way until steve was built in late 2006? back when eve was hard?

The problem is proliferation, super capital births are outpacing super capital losses at an alarming rate, and outposts cant be destroyed. Before long there will be an outpost in every constellation in 0.0 and titans will be as common as dreadnaughts.

We need to slow the massive rate of growth back to a reasonable level.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-09-18 14:16:51 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Sigras wrote:
I just learned how ridiculous mineral compression is and I now think that this (and the fact that titans make 0.0 logistics a cake walk) is the reason for supercapital proliferation.



I though that too then I actually rad a bit more about it and found out it's not really true.

care to enlighten the rest of the class?


The sea of blue didn't appear magically. It has to be kept working.

Refining usually require a **** ton of heauling. Hauling ore takes a long time because it's too damn large. Much larger than the minerals it contains.

Sending all of that to maket means even mroe hauling. This hauling will require more protection.

Those 3 are already making the work much more complicated than a cake walk as teh OP said. If you want to see what is a cakewalk in term of minerals hauling, GO GO high sec. I see auto pilot charon every day and usually more than one. Those are without escort. If people do it, it's because they don't lose enough hauler for the risk to be felt. Thats the sign of a cake walk. The fact that GSF is able to have an intel network and people hunting a lot of ship entering thier space does not mean all of null is like that. It's like saying having a fleet of 11 supercarrier was easy when the US economy was going strong because they could pull it off.
Skorpynekomimi
#13 - 2012-09-18 16:27:45 UTC
CCP have nerfed mineral compression before. Note how you can't stuff a cargo-expanded industrial with containers loaded with stuff, and load it into a ship maintenance bay, then jump with it.
But people still do it, because it's easier than the alternative of hauling a whackload of tritanium down into null in it's raw form, or compressing veldspar and hauling that down before refining it, which is the way CCP wants it to be done.

Economic PVP
Infinite Force
#14 - 2012-09-18 19:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinite Force
Raw minerals (Trit, Pyer, etc.) for a single Avatar (ship ME 0 / Comp ME 50) consume 56 Freighters @ 900k m3 / freighter trip or 167 JF's @ 300k m3 / JF.

It takes about 10 days to compress a Titan's worth of minerals.

Take away mineral compression and it'll still take a couple of weeks to transport that amount of minerals into deep null -- you won't have accomplished anything except make hard logistics, harder.

Mineral compression isn't over powered and it won't stop the proliferation of Super Caps.

You want to stop the proliferation of SuperCaps, go blow them up.

Would you like some Cheese with your Whine?


PS - Just to be sure, I don't fly any SuperCaps (I can, just don't) and I do mineral compression. I currently am booked solid for the next 8 days "compressing" raw minerals.

1/10 for the OP Troll.

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Sigras
Conglomo
#15 - 2012-09-18 21:21:55 UTC
Infinite Force wrote:
Take away mineral compression and it'll still take a couple of weeks to transport that amount of minerals into deep null -- you won't have accomplished anything except make hard logistics, harder.

i would agree with you except it isnt hard logistics right now.

1. Find a low sec system one jump off of high sec
2. Bring in a titan when its quiet
3. Scout the gate
4. Bring in two freighters
5. Use the web trick to get them to insta align
6. Bridge the freighters
7. ???
8. Titan

unless youre an idiot, that's both risk free and easy

Yes, the compression does take some time, but thats what alts are for . . .

One alt can compress a titans worth of minerals in 19 days, two can do it in 10 . . . and the best part is, that the alts can still do other things while AFK manufacturing these things for you.

easy logistics is easy
Lukriss
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-09-18 22:37:03 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Take away mineral compression and it'll still take a couple of weeks to transport that amount of minerals into deep null -- you won't have accomplished anything except make hard logistics, harder.

i would agree with you except it isnt hard logistics right now.

1. Find a low sec system one jump off of high sec
2. Bring in a titan when its quiet
3. Scout the gate
4. Bring in two freighters
5. Use the web trick to get them to insta align
6. Bridge the freighters
7. ???
8. Titan

unless youre an idiot, that's both risk free and easy

Yes, the compression does take some time, but thats what alts are for . . .

One alt can compress a titans worth of minerals in 19 days, two can do it in 10 . . . and the best part is, that the alts can still do other things while AFK manufacturing these things for you.

easy logistics is easy


Because titan bridges reach everywhere, with just 1 bridge!
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#17 - 2012-09-19 16:45:15 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Take away mineral compression and it'll still take a couple of weeks to transport that amount of minerals into deep null -- you won't have accomplished anything except make hard logistics, harder.

i would agree with you except it isnt hard logistics right now.

1. Find a low sec system one jump off of high sec
2. Bring in a titan when its quiet
3. Scout the gate
4. Bring in two freighters
5. Use the web trick to get them to insta align
6. Bridge the freighters
7. ???
8. Titan

unless youre an idiot, that's both risk free and easy

Yes, the compression does take some time, but thats what alts are for . . .

One alt can compress a titans worth of minerals in 19 days, two can do it in 10 . . . and the best part is, that the alts can still do other things while AFK manufacturing these things for you.

easy logistics is easy


So you need about 4-5 Titans set up in a bridging network to get deep into null where most Titans are built. And then bridge super vulnerable freighters through that network without anyone noticing??

Yeah that will work....

Even if it was feasible that is not simple logistics to pull off.

So it takes 3 loads with a jump freighter to equal one load with a freighter. That still seems much easier to pull off to me.

Null sec supply logistics are never easy. Mineral compression just makes it less of a PITA.
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2012-09-19 19:56:23 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Infinite Force wrote:
Take away mineral compression and it'll still take a couple of weeks to transport that amount of minerals into deep null -- you won't have accomplished anything except make hard logistics, harder.

i would agree with you except it isnt hard logistics right now.

1. Find a low sec system one jump off of high sec
2. Bring in a titan when its quiet
3. Scout the gate
4. Bring in two freighters
5. Use the web trick to get them to insta align
6. Bridge the freighters
7. ???
8. Titan

unless youre an idiot, that's both risk free and easy

Yes, the compression does take some time, but thats what alts are for . . .

One alt can compress a titans worth of minerals in 19 days, two can do it in 10 . . . and the best part is, that the alts can still do other things while AFK manufacturing these things for you.

easy logistics is easy


So you need about 4-5 Titans set up in a bridging network to get deep into null where most Titans are built. And then bridge super vulnerable freighters through that network without anyone noticing??

Yeah that will work....

Even if it was feasible that is not simple logistics to pull off.

So it takes 3 loads with a jump freighter to equal one load with a freighter. That still seems much easier to pull off to me.

Null sec supply logistics are never easy. Mineral compression just makes it less of a PITA.



I have helped do this multiple times as the FC in charge and I can assure you, it is very simple. The titan bridge is one of the biggest game breaking imbalances currently existent. It is not really the compression that is the issue, compression I think currently is not nearly as bad as it used to be. The problem is the proliferation of Titans that can bridge regular freighters full of gear in vast quantities and very simply (simple when compared to any other method).
Sigras
Conglomo
#19 - 2012-09-19 21:16:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
So you need about 4-5 Titans set up in a bridging network one titan following a group of freighters around to get deep into null where most Titans are built. And then bridge super vulnerable completely safe when using the gang warp cyno trick freighters through that network without anyone noticing where it doesnt matter if anyone notices because your network is all dead end systems with a cyno beacon and +100 km of bubbles on the only gate??

Yeah that will work....

FTFY