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[Winter] Support Cruisers

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Calsys
Monks of War
#221 - 2012-09-14 07:04:44 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Level 5 skills were accounted for during these builds. The second fit needs about 660 CPU, which would be an additional 20% from current with max skills. Even with level 5 capacitor skills and dual energy transfer it will cap out in 13 seconds.

dont forget about imps\boosters\links :)
BrutalButFair
Fleet of the Damned
#222 - 2012-09-14 10:21:15 UTC
How nice. Cheap throwaway logi's which almost performes the same as T2 logi's with a much much much smaller sigradius. You wil see these alot in BS engagements as BS's nearly can't hit them :)

To actively reduce your ship's signature radius, you can either use the Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers, ingest an X-Instinct Booster or employ the use of Halo implants.

these will become very popular for logi pilots i think :)
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#223 - 2012-09-14 19:36:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Just like the Logi frigate balance pass we're hitting the modules at the same time, reducing some fitting requirements on medium remote reps significantly


I didn't see the Medium Energy Transfers on that list, was that a deliberate omission or an oversight?

Also, keep up the good work, Fozz.

No sig.
LePaJ
My Little Pony Industries Inc.
RED.OverLord
#224 - 2012-09-14 19:46:04 UTC
If med transfers A-type will be boosted in PG - it will be possible to make 100k HP capstable basilisk+4 large shield transfers
Oraac Ensor
#225 - 2012-09-14 20:58:13 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
If the Exequror is to lose its cargo bonus what alternative will trial accounts have for hauling?


you do see it got 3 additional low slots right? At cruiser lvl 1 post change, it's got he potential for 3232 cargo space with 6 local expanders and 3 t1 rigs.

Oops. Oops

I looked at the bonuses and rushed straight into print. What a twerp.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#226 - 2012-09-15 19:18:45 UTC
I only have one, somewhat silly, regret in all this.

I always considered the armor amount bonus that the Augoror got to be a unique and welcome bonus. It saddens me that it will be disappearing from the game.

To me, it seemed like an interesting way to provide a large buffer for an armor tank dedicated ship that didn't involve plates that slowed the ship down hugely. Or if you didn't mind the speed loss and still threw on plates, the bonus made that highly effective.

Perhaps ways could be looked into to tweak the old adaptive armor modules, the ones that raised armor HP to a lesser extent than plates but had no speed penalties, more useful.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Doddy
Excidium.
#227 - 2012-09-15 21:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Nothing wrong with logi drones tbh, people are just mad cos they use their drones to get killmails so wont see any benefit.

A cycle time bonus rather than rep amount bonus on the drones would be better though, then they can fulfill their true role and keep inties alive between cycles enough for the real reps to hit.
Doddy
Excidium.
#228 - 2012-09-15 21:06:57 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I only have one, somewhat silly, regret in all this.

I always considered the armor amount bonus that the Augoror got to be a unique and welcome bonus. It saddens me that it will be disappearing from the game.

To me, it seemed like an interesting way to provide a large buffer for an armor tank dedicated ship that didn't involve plates that slowed the ship down hugely. Or if you didn't mind the speed loss and still threw on plates, the bonus made that highly effective.

Perhaps ways could be looked into to tweak the old adaptive armor modules, the ones that raised armor HP to a lesser extent than plates but had no speed penalties, more useful.


Navy Augoror .....
Alara IonStorm
#229 - 2012-09-16 02:39:39 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

I always considered the armor amount bonus that the Augoror got to be a unique and welcome bonus. It saddens me that it will be disappearing from the game.

I know this thought is going to be well received by pretty much no one but here goes.

Resist Bonuses act as Active Tank Bonus and Logi Bonuses and while some think that they should boost active tanking bonuses or make Active Bonuses count for RR.

I think they should change all non T3 Resist Bonuses into a buffer equivalent. Make them count towards just HP Buffer.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#230 - 2012-09-16 02:55:54 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I know this thought is going to be well received by pretty much no one but here goes.

...

I think they should change all non T3 Resist Bonuses into a buffer equivalent. Make them count towards just HP Buffer.


I just stole candy from a baby, and used a rude word in front of a lady, and then I took the Lord's name in vain. I'll appreciate it if you not provoke such anger in me any further. Amarr and Caldari get multiply-useful resist bonuses because that's the kind of people they are. Tanky, slow, projecting damage. They're quite unlike Minmatar and Gallente, like any decent people will be.
Alara IonStorm
#231 - 2012-09-16 03:41:23 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Amarr and Caldari get multiply-useful resist bonuses because that's the kind of people they are.

An I want to see that change.
Kuehnelt wrote:

Tanky, slow, projecting damage.

They would still be all those things just not for active tanking and RR.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#232 - 2012-09-16 10:20:48 UTC
Why in heaven's name would you want to deliberately increase buffer/EHP tanking? .. it is simplistic and boooooring! Sad

Reg: Current low-tier Navy cruisers.
Would be sweet if they were thought to be refurbs of the stock models and retained one or two of the logistic bonuses . .range alone would be enough. Never made much sense to me that the stock is completely different from the derived hull, will be an even greater discrepancy when the stocks are given "pure" roles.
Alara IonStorm
#233 - 2012-09-16 10:30:26 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Why in heaven's name would you want to deliberately increase buffer/EHP tanking? .. it is simplistic and boooooring! Sad

Do you mean my post about replacing resist bonuses?

If so I don't want to increase it, I want the bonuses to be roughly the same without the boost to RR / Active Tanking.
Jehan Markow
Wu Si Yuan Luojishan
#234 - 2012-09-16 13:56:48 UTC
These changes are overkill, and you don't have my support on them. From the looks of it, you're basically giving all the T1 cruisers the same level and complexity of bonus as the T2, making T2 logi boats nearly obsolete. Instead, I think you need to eliminate the T1 role bonuses and focus on one logistics bonus per ship. Perhaps instead of giving cap consumption bonuses you can just apply range bonuses? I'm thinking range bonuses as follows:
Auguror - energy transfer
Exequror - armor repair
Osprey - shield transfer
Scythe - tracking links
This keeps T1 ships simple and encourages T2 usage. It means that these ships can focus on one thing and still have room left over for fitting a few guns or drones.

Ditch the drone bonuses. Those things on logi boats are just silly in 80% of combat situations. I barely have enough time to lock the guy whose ass I'm saving, let alone telling my drones to help save his ass, too. Now, if you guys could work on the mechanics so logi drones automatically engage a target that I'm repping from my hi-slots, then the drone bonuses might end up worthwhile. Still, it adds unnecessary complexity to the gameplay.

Also, just keep the current mining bonuses, and add mining bonuses to the Auguror and Exequror which don't currently have them (not sure why you guys did that in the first place). Allow each of these ships to fit 3x turrets, and balance the bonus so they mine slightly less than a Skiff/Procurer at max skills. This allows players to try out mining without having to dedicate time to training barges or the silly ORE frigate. But it also lets them reconfigure their ships for combat, some combination of 3 guns and 4 reppers spread over 5 hi-slots.

Finally, don't call these cruisers "support" because they are just one out of many kinds of "support". Players already use the word "support" incorrectly which causes confusion for us in PVP. They are "logistics" boats. "Support" is a nebulous word with multiple meanings, which is why it gets confusing. If you don't like the word "logistics", call them "medics" or "healers" or "reppers", but not "support".
-JM
Martin0
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#235 - 2012-09-16 18:29:18 UTC
I would replace the 100% bonus to drones with something else.
You know, if you want to be on a killmail you will have to carry COMBAT drones.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#236 - 2012-09-16 19:15:06 UTC
Martin0 wrote:
I would replace the 100% bonus to drones with something else.
You know, if you want to be on a killmail you will have to carry COMBAT drones.

So don't be a mail hoe then, pretty sure fleets (or small gangs, as the drone bonus seems to be geared towards) would rather have a fully dedicated logi pilot, than a half assed one with a higher KB efficiency.

Also, Fonzie already explained that the drone bonus is deliberately a fairly weak bonus, so as to ensure that the ships were not OP.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#237 - 2012-09-17 13:18:09 UTC
Drones could be good for a dedicated logi pilot in a small gang. 100% bonused med drones make for 2 unbonused medium remote repair modules, but use no cap ; and once the drones are in place, they take only a few seconds to get to work.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#238 - 2012-09-17 18:50:06 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Now shipstats:

Augoror:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
5% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers and Energy Transfers
200% bonus to Energy Transfer Array transfer amount
Slot layout: 5 H (+1), 3 M (+1), 5 L, 3 turrets
Fittings: 650 PWG (+175), 275 CPU (+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1000(+140) / 1650(+321) / 1550(+221)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+562.5) / 300s(-35s) / 5 (+2.2015)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+57) / 0.68(+0.055) / 10730000 / 6.8s (+0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(+15) / 20(+15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 62.5km(+20) / 385(+57) / 8(+3)
Sensor strength: 14 Radar (+3)
Signature radius: 90 (-20)
Cargo capacity: 465


Osprey:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters and Energy Transfers
200% bonus to Energy Transfer Array transfer amount
Slot layout: 5 H (+1), 5 M (+1), 3 L, 1 turret (-2), 2 launchers
Fittings: 425 PWG (-50), 440 CPU (+165)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(+477) / 1000(+24) / 1450(+356)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1375(+531.25) / 275s(-26.25s) / 5 (+2.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+47) / 0.59(+0.085) / 11230000 / 6.2s (+0.9)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 / 20
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+12.5) / 350(+39) / 8(+3)
Sensor strength: 16 Gravimetric (+2)
Signature radius: 95 (-30)
Cargo capacity: 485

Exequror:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
5% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
100% bonus to Logistic Drone (both armor and shield) rep amount
Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 4 M, 6 L (+3), 3 turrets (-1)
Fittings: 610 PWG (+110), 275 CPU (+25)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1000(+101) / 1400(+227) / 1600(+506)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1375(+375) / 264s(-92.25s) / 5.2 (+2.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 240(+81) / 0.61 / 11020000 / 6.3s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+10) / 50(+10)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km(+7.5) / 365(+43) / 8(+3)
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric (+2)
Signature radius: 80 (-40)
Cargo capacity: 495 (-105)

Scythe:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters
100% bonus to Logistic Drone (both armor and shield) rep amount
Slot layout: 3 H (-2), 5 M (+2), 5 L (+2), 2 turrets (-1), 1 launcher (-1)
Fittings: 330 PWG (-95), 415 CPU (+190)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+424) / 1100(+124) / 1300(+324)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+468.75) / 240s(-38.75s) / 5.2 (+2.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250(+47) / 0.6(+0.095) / 11110000 / 6.2s (+0.9)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45 (+40) / 45 (+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(+15) / 400(+55) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+2)
Signature radius: 75 (-25)
Cargo capacity: 475 (+35)

Let us know what you think!



Me thinks I'm going to start flying these interesting ships at some occasions for fun, and this being said by a space priests/shamans hater means a lot.

Gj on those first stats.

brb
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#239 - 2012-09-18 12:41:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
If we balance them down, expect it to be in areas such as fittings, resilience, sig radius and rep power rather than in rep range, speed or cap stability (which we consider to be the minimum requirements to operate in a mixed fleet alongside logistics ships).
What about a smaller rep range than their T2 brothers, so that the T1 variants need to travel more closely with the pack (eg 20-30km rather than 50-60+)?

I'm concerned that crippling their tank will end up problematic: either they die too quickly to have an effect or they'll hang out of range (like T3 BCs or blackbirds) and force heavy use of fast assets to counter them. Being lower skilled ships, I also think it's more "fun" for newer pilots to have something that is less effective than the T2 version but has the tank to hang around and contribute rather than something that can match (or exceed) the raw output of a T2 ship if you have the finesse skill to stay alive.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?
Aiifa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2012-09-19 15:20:11 UTC
I hope these changes are reworked totally before being pushed. They're in the right direction, but they're not quite right. The answer to difficult to fly and flimsy ships isn't to throw more slots and fitting at them. It's to balance everything around them. Including gameplay.


I've already whined about this here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=692924#post692924

having ewar like tds affect everything and support like tracking links or tes/tcs affect everything as opposed to just turrets homogenises the game. yet again we're approaching a situation in which each class size has a long range and a short range weapons system, each range coming in four different skins