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Community Project: Miners Codex / Mining Code

Author
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#21 - 2012-09-14 09:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ji Sama
Yazan Drar wrote:
I can see the need for such guidelines, just to establish some Honour code among miners. Perhaps this would be more effective if corporations would adopt some or all of these rules as their code of conduct. I guess they would especially like the Rule 6 Smile

Could you explain the idea behind rules 3 and 4? What qualifies as mining or selling what you need? Perhaps I have misunderstood the idea of mining, but I do it get isk. Is this an example of need or greed?

Rules referred:
Quote:

Rule 3
You will only mine what you need

Rule 4
You will only sell what you need

Rule 6
Give more than you take



I think the general idea would be for this to be implemented on a corporation/alliance level, otherwise there would be no way to regulate or control it. I.e. if people just said they lived up to it, but didn't do it. (telling instead of showing) then it would be a waste of time anyways.

The reasoning behind rule 3 & 4 (perhaps calling them guidelines instead, dunno if RULES ticks of people) is that we are part of the economy as a whole, we provide some of the basic materials every player has need for, directly or indirectly.
This is a HUGE responsibility, and its therefore of the utmost importance that we take this responsibility seriously.

And inflation is a huge problem.

So the general idea is to put some thought behind your actions, instead of mindlessly stripping asteroids.

So you only take from the belt what you need, you also do not discriminate against ore, you take whats in your general area, when its completely stripped you move on. This makes it in turn easier for everyone, as you don't get half empty fields etc.

When I say take what you need, I mean what is needed to fill a specific quota. So when you hit your daily, weekly, monthly quota you stop mining. Same goes for refining, don't mindlessly refine every single drop of ore you can scavenge, refine what is needed to fill your mineral quota.

Next rule is kinda related, instead of mindlessly dumping all your minerals to buy orders on the market. You setup sell orders, (all real mining corps have a ore/mineral buyback program anyways) and don't crash or inflate a mineral.
(Of course you adjust for demand)

This way we get a healthier market for everyone.

It's an idea I got that we need to be an ISK sink, instead of a faucet.
That means stockpiling, and carefully management of orders/quotas!

For example. And this is not to promote my own company in any ways.
We have an ore/mineral/salvage buyback program, we also buy a lot of general materials and components, as well as simple trade goods. This take a lot of work of the miner, so he can optimize his output, and utilize his time more constructive, instead of sitting semi-afk at a belt, watching movies. (not that there is something wrong with that, each to his own. Its about quality instead of quantity)

I can also see the logic behind some of the other criticism that has been put forward here.
For example, this would probably not be for the NPC-Corp miners.
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#22 - 2012-09-14 09:17:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ji Sama
I have some excellent examples of how we can all produce in over-unity, using a need based approach to our work!

Gift and resource based economy vs. free market capitalism.

The give more than you receive also boost your input/yield, under the very important circumstance that EVERYONE directly involved are doing it. I.e. the more leeches the less efficient the system will be, and ultimately collapse if misrepresented or misused.
(the system is fragile especially in EVE since it requires goodwill and trust, something that can be hard to come by)


Forgot the examples:

http://www.holoplexmedia.com/category/netonomy

A good friend of mine made these Vlogs.
It's about RL economy, nevertheless it applies to EVE :) imho....
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#23 - 2012-09-14 09:25:06 UTC
Also thanks to everyone that have contributed so far.

Try to keep it constructive if you can, if not; then come forward anyways, might be hiding some nuggets of gold between the cynics and critics :)

Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#24 - 2012-09-14 11:11:49 UTC
Ji Sama wrote:

And inflation is a huge problem.
Ji Sama wrote:

It's an idea I got that we need to be an ISK sink, instead of a faucet.

People who think mining is an isk faucet, and that "overmining" is a cause of inflation have no business writing miner codes.

Until all are free...

Sturmwolke
#25 - 2012-09-14 11:22:07 UTC
Ji Sama wrote:

The goal of the codex is to get some respect again from the community. We aren't all AFK/RMT/BOTTING etc.
But we do acknowledge that it is a problem.


For what purpose? I personally don't see an issue with miners/industrialists.
To gain respect for what?
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#26 - 2012-09-14 11:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ji Sama
Kueyen wrote:
Ji Sama wrote:

And inflation is a huge problem.
Ji Sama wrote:

It's an idea I got that we need to be an ISK sink, instead of a faucet.

People who think mining is an isk faucet, and that "overmining" is a cause of inflation have no business writing miner codes.



And why is that?

If you are thinking that minerals = faucet, then you are incorrect; true.

I perhaps phrased it poorly. For that I apologize.

What I am thinking is more in the line, of not selling everything you mine/refine... This is not a faucet, since no ISK is created.
But if we actively buy ores/minerals/goods from the market/employees, and not re-list them, then we become a sink. (atleast temporaly, since it is not my intention that the goods should be destroyed, but instead be released on a rate the market can sustain.)

Perhaps I am totally off, in that case, please enlighten me.

Thank you for your contribution, clearing out misunderstandings like these are key.

Also I am not writing a miners code, I am trying to COMPILE one.. There is a difference, and this cannot work, without the help from people like yourself :)


EDIT: Perhaps I should just drop the sink/faucet comparison, as its perhaps more managing stockpiles and coping with supply/demand?


Also over-mining is one cause of inflation.
If we provide more minerals than the market can absorb, we are inflating the price of the minerals? Or is my basic understanding flawed here?
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#27 - 2012-09-14 11:34:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ji Sama
Sturmwolke wrote:
Ji Sama wrote:

The goal of the codex is to get some respect again from the community. We aren't all AFK/RMT/BOTTING etc.
But we do acknowledge that it is a problem.


For what purpose? I personally don't see an issue with miners/industrialists.
To gain respect for what?



Dunno, to take pride in your work? And get acceptance for a job well done?
(I know I am weak, because I care what others think about me)
That we aren't all mindless driveling button mashing drones?

Perhaps avoid in-game harassment from people that deem us unworthy?
Not that it personally matters to me as a person, but it is hurting my margin.
Personally I have never been harassed though, but it seems to be an issue?
Or am I over-reading the forums?

Also there is a lot of "John Doe'ing" going on apparently.
We also have examples (in this thread as well) about people thinking of our profession as something you do with your left hand (no offence intended to who ever are left handed, i use it as a lack of better phrase), half asleep, watching a movie.
I take pride in what we do, we plan operations, logistics, calculate quotas/payouts, always clean the belts after us, don't mine others roids, set wrecks to abandoned, be friendly and helpful, don't verbally offend people who have different opinions about how one should play the game. Being a general good sport, even if you are suicide ganked. Keeping a good tone, between PVP'ers and PVE'ers...

Because you do not see any issues does not mean that there is consensus about this.

Well I dunno tbh, I might be going of on a tangent here, it was an idea, ideas are supposed to be shared, that was what I did.

What better place to come for feedback on an idea than here?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#28 - 2012-09-14 12:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Ji Sama wrote:
This is not a faucet, since no ISK is created.
But if we actively buy ores/minerals/goods from the market/employees, and not re-list them, then we become a sink.



Nope.

By buying something you've increased the isk in the marketplace, and by holding onto that something, you've decreased the volume of goods.


Fewer goods on the market = higher prices. That's just basic supply and demand.



The /only/ true sinks in the game are when you're buying goods/services from NPCs.

If you want to be a psuedo sink, you have to sell things, and keep the isk in your wallet.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#29 - 2012-09-14 12:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ji Sama
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Ji Sama wrote:
This is not a faucet, since no ISK is created.
But if we actively buy ores/minerals/goods from the market/employees, and not re-list them, then we become a sink.



Nope.

By buying something you've increased the isk in the marketplace, and by holding onto that something, you've decreased the volume of goods.


Fewer goods on the market = higher prices. That's just basic supply and demand.



The /only/ true sinks in the game are when you're buying goods/services from NPCs.

If you want to be a psuedo sink, you have to sell things, and keep the isk in your wallet.


Yea I am apparently failing at relaying what I mean.
And shot myself in the foot using the wrong terms.

Can we just imagine that we are talking about minerals and not ISK, and then be a mineral SINK (temporarily)

If we take minerals from roids, and not resell more than (for sake of argument )10% we are temporarily taking ore out of the game, this creating a THOUGHT of SINK?

EDIT: I can see getting no sleep is really limiting my ability to write properly in a foreign language.

I was talking about a thought of sink, and it was never an ISK sink but a temporary (market dictated) sink. (stock, hold)
Gumby Ambraelle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-09-14 12:26:02 UTC
I applaude your efforts to create a guide line for miners in space.

I fear that the general attitude of EVE is very pvp'ish

It is me against the world, so I will take all I can get before it gets me....

I believe it is common courtesy not to target an asteroid that someone else is mining.
If you warp into a belt and some one is working, you should go to the other end of the belt and work from there.

If you warp into a new belt, start at one end and work toward the other, mining eveything as you go, not just the highest value rock of the day.

If some one is familiar with an area then they should let others know when a know ganker is in the area.

Be respectful in local and if some one asks a question, do not mock them for their lack of knowledge, share your knowledge and experience with them.

As I think of more i will post them
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#31 - 2012-09-14 12:32:35 UTC
Thank you for your constructive reply, and encouragement, that hit a dry spot :)
Will go to sleep on that, cuddle up with my bears in my large fluffy bed, all naked and insecure about what the dangerous PVP'ers think about me.
Gumby Ambraelle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-09-14 12:37:32 UTC
Ji Sama wrote:
Thank you for your constructive reply, and encouragement, that hit a dry spot :)
Will go to sleep on that, cuddle up with my bears in my large fluffy bed, all naked and insecure about what the dangerous PVP'ers think about me.


As this is a game it is important to remeber that you are doing this to have fun.

What others think of you matters not, what you think of you is important.

playing the game in a manner which is respectful of others makes game play more enjoyable for me, it may not be the same for someone else. That is the joy of this sandbox we call EVE.

Continue to do that in EVE that makes your game experience more enjoyable, you will find those that are like minded as well as those who will ridicule you. Be yourself and have fun, the rest will take care of itself. Lol
Sturmwolke
#33 - 2012-09-14 20:15:05 UTC
Ji Sama wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:

For what purpose? I personally don't see an issue with miners/industrialists.
To gain respect for what?

Dunno, to take pride in your work? And get acceptance for a job well done?
(I know I am weak, because I care what others think about me)
That we aren't all mindless driveling button mashing drones?


So, in other words, there's really no solid purpose behind this codex other than trying to sooth the feeling of inadequacy.
Not going to work, imo.

Well, I don't see miner/industrialists (even traders) as PVP stereotypes see them. The have more potential to be the movers and shakers in EVE than a simple PVP (aka shipcombat) grunt.
If you say there's a consensus out there saying this group needs more respect, then perhaps the person(s) saying so needs to re-adjust their pespective. Big smile
Ginger Barbarella
#34 - 2012-09-14 22:05:40 UTC
There are no real large Alliance's of industrialists. If you want to be taken seriously, start building one that matters, with all the necessary parts (research, soldiers, diplomats, etc) of that Alliance to survive and make an Industrial power bloc that matters.

Cute names for miner manifestos holds zero water with the community at large.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#35 - 2012-09-15 10:06:20 UTC
Good valid points all of you, thank you for the feedback :)
Ginger Barbarella
#36 - 2012-09-15 18:46:02 UTC
Ji Sama wrote:
Good valid points all of you, thank you for the feedback :)


I, for one, will be one of the first to join such a venture, for both the Industrial side as well as the pew side... But it needs to matter.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#37 - 2012-09-15 19:27:42 UTC
Hey Ji Sama, great job and effort! Smile

There actually already is a Code which all miners in highsec must follow: The New Halaima Code of Conduct. But I fully support your exploration into seeing how miners can improve the community by voluntarily taking on a code of proper behavior.

Even if you temporarily refuse to acknolwedge the Code linked above, I hope you will read it and it will give you ideas for your own code in the meantime. Cool
Terraferma K10
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-09-23 00:43:39 UTC
James 315 wrote:
There actually already is a set of rules I want other people to follow when playing a game for fun.

FTFY
If only you didn't remove posts of the opposite viewpoint from your website's comment section...
Ginger Barbarella
#39 - 2012-09-23 01:39:13 UTC
Terraferma K10 wrote:
James 315 wrote:
There actually already is a set of rules I want other people to follow when playing a game for fun.

FTFY
If only you didn't remove posts of the opposite viewpoint from your website's comment section...


Hey, it's his website, and he can sensor any posts he wants to.

Just like we can block his remarkably dumb-arse comments here... Cool

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#40 - 2012-09-23 07:19:47 UTC
Hello all, feedback has been very good and for the most of it constructive.
I am compiling a new list based on feedback from you.

Thanks again :)
Update coming tomorrow :)
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