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[Winter] EW Cruisers

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#261 - 2012-09-15 12:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Good morning everyone. Gonna go over some of the key questions and comments I'm seeing in the thread so far.

That being said, building strawman fits optimized for EFT numbers is the oldest trick in the book for "winning" theorycrafting arguments and you shouldn't count on me not knowing the difference between the paper dps of a 4 damage mod rage ham setup and the actual value of that ship in space.
We're always open to evaluating ships with help from player feedback, but I'm going to ask everyone to make sure to keep your discussion constructive.
One of the things that makes paper meet structure is TP. It is very effective for missiles and almost as effective for drones. My fear is that this ship will replace the Caracal. That 10% range bonus does little for HAMs and are almost useless for HMLs, esp if not at 5. TP makes HAMs a lot more effective; for HMLs it can hit what the Caracal can't and use medium drones to hit the same small targets. I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal.


You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..?

So comparing the two as they stand is very silly.


Well traditionally its a sniper and i cant see that changing myself it will prob get more slots in highs and lows so more dps but bonus will be the same i expect

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#262 - 2012-09-15 13:30:02 UTC
i wish velocity bonus for missiles included a ex velocity bonus...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#263 - 2012-09-15 14:26:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Frothgar wrote:
Fozzie, what about some Faction/Pirate Frigs/Cruisers? The Sansha ones are awful to begin with.

We're going to work on them as well, but not until after we have the basic T1 cruisers done.


Are we allowed to hope for some Cruor/Firetail love by winter should all go well? :D
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#264 - 2012-09-15 16:43:10 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Good morning everyone. Gonna go over some of the key questions and comments I'm seeing in the thread so far.

That being said, building strawman fits optimized for EFT numbers is the oldest trick in the book for "winning" theorycrafting arguments and you shouldn't count on me not knowing the difference between the paper dps of a 4 damage mod rage ham setup and the actual value of that ship in space.
We're always open to evaluating ships with help from player feedback, but I'm going to ask everyone to make sure to keep your discussion constructive.
One of the things that makes paper meet structure is TP. It is very effective for missiles and almost as effective for drones. My fear is that this ship will replace the Caracal. That 10% range bonus does little for HAMs and are almost useless for HMLs, esp if not at 5. TP makes HAMs a lot more effective; for HMLs it can hit what the Caracal can't and use medium drones to hit the same small targets. I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal.


You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..?

So comparing the two as they stand is very silly.


Well traditionally its a sniper and i cant see that changing myself it will prob get more slots in highs and lows so more dps but bonus will be the same i expect


Lets hope it gets a missle trackign bonus like explostion velocity, or something useful like a dule damage bonus, lol. unlikely tho
Scozzy
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2012-09-15 17:44:51 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Looks good and in line with the previosuly stated design goals. Some questions though:

- Why does the Arby retain its mining bonus to drones?
- Whats the reasoning behind giving the celestis the higest sensor strengt of the 4 ships? At 20, its even better than caldari battlecruisers.
- The Blackbird and Celestis are designed for ranged EW-support, so whats the reasoning behind the increased dronebay on the Celestis?


- I'd like to know as well.

- I imagine BCs will get rebalanced sensor strength right after the winter expansion.

- Drones can engage 40+ km away, plus more with a Drone Link or two.


My question is, why allows 3 turrets/2 launchers? The Gallente usually use blasters, and this is a ranged platform by what CCP says. I'm down for throwing railguns on it, but I thought the idea was to encourage Gallente to use blasters (no sarcasm). Wouldn't a 0-turret, 3-launcher allowance make more synergy, following the Lachesis' 3--launcher support damage?

Honestly I see this current version of the Celestis being used with a 3-AC setup for defense (which does work). I'm sure CCP doesn't want it going that way (non-bonused off-racial guns), but it probably will as Blasters won't have as good of tracking for close-range defense against high-speed targets. Which leads me to think of a railgun setup with no range bonus (having to close within.. well with 0% range altering ammo (Lead charge) it's 36KM with 250mm railguns with all skills to 5. I guess it'll still be range-complimentary with 200mm railguns using longer range ammo and less skills.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#266 - 2012-09-15 18:27:34 UTC
Blasters have better tracking than ACs.

I'd also bet that Lachesis will lose it's missiles for hybrids, or more likely drones, like Tristan.

.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2012-09-15 18:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Roime wrote:
Blasters have better tracking than ACs.

I'd also bet that Lachesis will lose it's missiles for hybrids, or more likely drones, like Tristan.


I woukd like to see a hybrid Lachesis and a Drone Arazu, that would be sexy Lol

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#268 - 2012-09-15 23:14:37 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
...and a Drone Arazu, that would be sexy Lol
As sexy as that would be (and it would be very very sexy) I don't see it happening. Effective damps + drones on a cloaky ship would be just a little too effective.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#269 - 2012-09-16 00:24:36 UTC
Annoitte wrote:
I'm Down wrote:


No, i think disruptor is a prime choice... but even ewar isn't met.

Arbitrator... disrupt gun ships offensive abilities range/tracking (a defensive mechanic)
Blackbird... disrupts a ships locking abilities (a defensive mechanic)
Celestis.... disrups a ships target range or lock time (a defensive mechanic)
Belicose... increases a targets incoming damage (an offensive mechanic)

notice a disparity there?



It's probably already been said, but... It's Minmatar. Minmatar attack things, not hide from them. This type of E-War fits their combat philosophy perfectly. Offense is best defense, and all that.


Expect it is not. Almost all their ships have excellent tanks and can speed tank. So their best defense is to have a defense, and all that.
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#270 - 2012-09-16 04:34:29 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal.
You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..?

So comparing the two as they stand is very silly.
Just voicing a concern. Please not the unassuming tone. I have faith in CCP Fozzie. The Merlin turned out great and the new Kestrel seems balanced. That said, I think that just the damage bonus will change to RoF. A ship line from Kestrel to Caracal to Raven is being drawn (BCs and DDs likely to follow). I don't want the range of the Caracal to be over estimated or its lack of drones overlooked.

Harvey James wrote:
Well traditionally its a sniper and i cant see that changing myself it will prob get more slots in highs and lows so more dps but bonus will be the same i expect
And I expect the range bonus to stay the same. The high slots are unlikely to change. The Kestrel has 4 launchers, the Caracal 5, and the Raven 6. My hope is for an extra mid and low. Low for damage or DCU; mid for TP, tackle basics, and tank. That would give it the 14 total. A high for nos/neut, SB, tractor beam (PvE) would be nice too, but that is 15 slots and they want 13-14. I feel the lack of drones could justify such a slot, but few would agree with me.

Heribeck Weathers wrote:
Lets hope it gets a missle trackign bonus like explostion velocity, or something useful like a dule damage bonus, lol. unlikely tho
The nighthawk has that bonus and I think that is what makes it stand out. The Caracal is the traditional range philosophy of the Caldari. The problem is range does little good if you can't keep distance even if you have it. The rise in Caldari ships in kill boards is from better close range attacks thanks to ASBs. Long range PvP needs to be fixed IMHO. (As stated, I think it will get a RoF bonus, which is better than a damage bonus. Both the Breacher and the Kestrel will be getting damage bonuses, but RoF was sought after.)
Martin0
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#271 - 2012-09-16 07:53:13 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Annoitte wrote:
I'm Down wrote:


No, i think disruptor is a prime choice... but even ewar isn't met.

Arbitrator... disrupt gun ships offensive abilities range/tracking (a defensive mechanic)
Blackbird... disrupts a ships locking abilities (a defensive mechanic)
Celestis.... disrups a ships target range or lock time (a defensive mechanic)
Belicose... increases a targets incoming damage (an offensive mechanic)

notice a disparity there?



It's probably already been said, but... It's Minmatar. Minmatar attack things, not hide from them. This type of E-War fits their combat philosophy perfectly. Offense is best defense, and all that.


Expect it is not. Almost all their ships have excellent tanks and can speed tank. So their best defense is to have a defense, and all that.

You said it yourself. Minmatar can speed tank and avoid getting hit, so for them is better an offensive bonus.
They aren't amarr sitting still or caldari with huge sig radius or gallente with crappy range.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#272 - 2012-09-16 09:34:49 UTC
Martin0 wrote:
You said it yourself. Minmatar can speed tank and avoid getting hit, so for them is better an offensive bonus.
They aren't amarr sitting still or caldari with huge sig radius or gallente with crappy range.

What I read him as saying, and what I also believe is that they have, due to relaxed fittings, static tanks comparable to other three races plus the speed tank and offensive capability.
Think about it, do you really think that Eve would have been Winmatar Online going on three years were they not generally better than everything else available .. in post nano-nerf Eve the skirmishing/hit'n'run tactics are at best a niche yet ships from the race supposedly designed for it makes up the vast majority of fielded hardware.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#273 - 2012-09-16 12:21:52 UTC
Obsidiana wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal.
You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..?

So comparing the two as they stand is very silly.
Just voicing a concern. Please not the unassuming tone. I have faith in CCP Fozzie. The Merlin turned out great and the new Kestrel seems balanced. That said, I think that just the damage bonus will change to RoF. A ship line from Kestrel to Caracal to Raven is being drawn (BCs and DDs likely to follow). I don't want the range of the Caracal to be over estimated or its lack of drones overlooked.


I just hope the Caracal wont be a 200dps 80km range lolship that is pretty much useless.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#274 - 2012-09-16 20:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
I really like the way this is going. As long this doesn't lead to a massive powercreep ofcourse
Obvisouly I hope the battlecruiser won't get the same treatment or the cruiser revamp will be wasted...

Here is my thoughts and concerns :

Overall...
To enforce a certain selection of shield or armor tank I really, really suggest adding 200-400 hitpoints to whatever flavor you intend for each ship.
Even EW cruisers seems to need more hitpoints to avoid exploding in a few battlecrusier volleys...

Arbitrator...
  • The Arbitrator is already a working ship only let down by less slots and EHP compared to the bigger brothers...
  • The extra lowslot really makes sense to enforce armor + drone damage mod.
  • The mining bonus is weird but doesn't matter. Make sure it's universal for T1 drone boats.
  • Powergrid and CPU is fine - but a little bit short if the hi-slots are meant to be usefull...
  • If hi-slots doesn't matter you can easily fit a XL ASB with only 1 T2 Co-CPU and a T1 CPU rig
  • I would suggest to add 2 more launcher slots for a total of 3 and keep the limited fittings

Blackbird...
Nothing extraordinary here either. Business as usual...
The extra lowslot will really help the ship survive a few extra seconds
  • If ECM is changed the BlackBird wlil need way more hitpoints - People already give up tanking it for more ECM
  • 150 sig radius seems a little big even though it has not been a huge issue so far
  • The BlackBird without a damage bonus could easily need 4 guns/launchers and a little extra fitting to follow

Celestis...
  • I would allow it 3 launchers if people should want to. With a dampener bonus only what harm can it do?
  • I'm a little sceptic to damps so I'd suggest an additional 25m3 drone bay

Bellicose...
Im in love and I like the way the balancing team are thinking to wolve the "target painter isn't a usefull EW" complaints. It looks rather nasty... If it shows a bit powerfull you can not only adjust bonus to damage (makes better sense with a target painter anyway) but you can also cut off 25m3 drones...

Closing up...
Obviously it is hard to figure out wether this is too little or too much. So far we know what frigates can do but the combat/attack cruisers and the battlecruisers are still unknown. I like what I see and read so far. I would ofcourse defiantely look into the XL ASB thing - Im loving it but it feels wrong for a cruiser??

Pinky
Obsidiana
Atrament Inc.
#275 - 2012-09-16 20:50:24 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Obsidiana wrote:
I am very curious how this ship is not going to be simply better than the Caracal.
You do realize that the Caracal is getting changed as well? That the bonuses it has now will probably change..?

So comparing the two as they stand is very silly.
Just voicing a concern. Please not the unassuming tone. I have faith in CCP Fozzie. The Merlin turned out great and the new Kestrel seems balanced. That said, I think that just the damage bonus will change to RoF. A ship line from Kestrel to Caracal to Raven is being drawn (BCs and DDs likely to follow). I don't want the range of the Caracal to be over estimated or its lack of drones overlooked.


I just hope the Caracal wont be a 200dps 80km range lolship that is pretty much useless.
Sadly, most people complain about missiles doing full damage at range, then use something else that does more damage.

I had to "quiet" (politely) someone who complained about my missiles doing good damage at 100k in a co-op mission. I reminded him that, one mission earlier, I had used guns on a Navy Domi. I know what both can do; I know how to use both (snipe the frigates, ppl). IMHO missiles are effectively the reverse of guns.
Doddy
Excidium.
#276 - 2012-09-16 21:49:02 UTC
These look good, the only worry for me is the celestis and thats to do with damps rather than the ship itself tbh. Bellicose especially looks like it will now do what it was supposed to do all along (point defence). not really surprised to see arbitrator and blackbird getting minimal changes as they were both rather good to start with. i do think the the split weapon system on the arby is a bit meh though, give it 3 launcher (the whitling away of amarr missile ships disappoints me) or 3 turret slots and we are good to go.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#277 - 2012-09-16 22:08:52 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Not really surprised to see arbitrator and blackbird getting minimal changes as they were both rather good to start with. I do think the the split weapon system on the arby is a bit meh though, give it 3 launcher (the whitling away of amarr missile ships disappoints me) or 3 turret slots and we are good to go.

This, a million times this. and while you're at it, get one of the art guys to look at the slot layout (the lopsidedness annoys me P ) either that or give it 4 hardpoints Blink.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
Joelleaveek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2012-09-16 22:32:58 UTC
I think you need to either drop the mining bonuses or make them across the board for all drone bonused ships. I also think if you are going to commit to no T1 missile frigs for Gallente and Amarr you should do the same for the Cruisers by dropping the launcher hardpoints on the Celesis and Arbitrator and going for 3 turret hardpoints on each.
CyrusNZ
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#279 - 2012-09-16 22:40:23 UTC
Damn Fozzie loving some of these ideas.
That Bellicose is pretty awesome, maby a little too much so. Smaller drone bay might help balance that.
Also I feel the Arby would benifit more from a 5th midslot rather than another lowslot, would bring it more inline with the Curse as an EWAR platform, that extra midslot would help the Arby perform as a more mobile ranged ewar platform.
Alara IonStorm
#280 - 2012-09-17 05:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

I just hope the Caracal wont be a 200dps 80km range lolship that is pretty much useless.

I am hoping it is good with both HAM's and Heavy Missiles personally. I would rather it be the close range ship instead of a Blaster designed Moa like the Merlin.

I would prefer they make Medium Rails a good fleet / gang choice on it instead.