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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#61 - 2011-10-15 16:14:25 UTC
Sh0plifter wrote:
You're POSes are doing well with blowing up your JFs. So, you are really solving this problem yourselves. Big smile


I assume you are talking about a HABIT tower ownzoning a BDCI freighter? Or are you talking about the SNIGG JF that we killed?

In the freighter incident, it's mostly because BDCI is bad and warped a neutral freighter to a tower.

In the JF incident, we had to wait until he was well out of dock range to kill him.

Akara Ito wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:

It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.



Ok Thats a decent troll I give you that.

But I'll do you the favor and bite:

1. Its not a Supercap because a) it can dock, b) it has no ewar imunity, c) it can use gates and d) you dont need sov to build it.
2. The logic of nerfing all "Supercaps" (JFs are none but ok) because some needed a nerf is ********. Please nerf every single frigate in game along with the announced Dramiel nerf
3. Even the "relative" relation from JFs to freighters is not that "super" The primary use of JFs and Freighters is transporting stuff. The JFs cargo is actually considerable smaller than a Freighter cargo. Yes it has a Jumpdrive, but the relation from Freighter to JFs is more similar to BS -> Blackops. Sacrificing a bit of their primary attributes (DPS/EHP for BS and cargo for Freighters) to gain a jumpdrive and additional functions. Please go ahead and nerf Blackops, do it.
4. Just for the records: there will never, ever be Freighter convoys through low sec in this game. This would be ******** in so much ways I'm not going to bother writing them down. I'll give you a hint: even if 10 Freighters would travel with a full fleet as escorts, a hostile fleet would just need 30 (more like 15 but whatever) people to warp in and alpha your freighter, no escort, no logistics, nothing could protect you from that.


1) It is a supercapital relative to its next lower tier, what's so hard to understand about this?

2) Supercarriers and Titans are getting nerfed not because they are supercapitals, but because within the games current mechanics, CCP feels they are overpowered. I believe Jump Freighters, too, are overpowered within the current game mechanics and need to be nerfed. No where did I say they should be nerfed because they are supercapitals.

3) If the bonuses from switching to a Black Ops from a BS gave the Black Ops near invulnerability while performing its primary attribute (DPS, as you say) then, yes, it would need to be addressed. But it doesn't.

4) Who said anything about convoys of Freighters through lowsec? But you are wrong, it happens all the time, with and without escorts.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Deyo
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2011-10-15 17:51:15 UTC
Let me see if i got this correctly. CCP decided to build a shopping mall over you playground and you want to kick someone else sand castle for that?
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#63 - 2011-10-15 19:03:28 UTC
Akara Ito wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:

It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.



Ok Thats a decent troll I give you that.

But I'll do you the favor and bite:

1. Its not a Supercap because a) it can dock, b) it has no ewar imunity, c) it can use gates and d) you dont need sov to build it.
2. The logic of nerfing all "Supercaps" (JFs are none but ok) because some needed a nerf is ********. Please nerf every single frigate in game along with the announced Dramiel nerf
3. Even the "relative" relation from JFs to freighters is not that "super" The primary use of JFs and Freighters is transporting stuff. The JFs cargo is actually considerable smaller than a Freighter cargo. Yes it has a Jumpdrive, but the relation from Freighter to JFs is more similar to BS -> Blackops. Sacrificing a bit of their primary attributes (DPS/EHP for BS and cargo for Freighters) to gain a jumpdrive and additional functions. Please go ahead and nerf Blackops, do it.
4. Just for the records: there will never, ever be Freighter convoys through low sec in this game. This would be ******** in so much ways I'm not going to bother writing them down. I'll give you a hint: even if 10 Freighters would travel with a full fleet as escorts, a hostile fleet would just need 30 (more like 15 but whatever) people to warp in and alpha your freighter, no escort, no logistics, nothing could protect you from that.

No, 1) does not mean it's not a supercap, it means it's terribly OP because it's a supercap that can do all those things. Thus 2).
3) Irrelevant. It move any stack of items over vast distances way faster then any freighter can.
4) So watch local and make sure there isn't a big hostile gang there then, or stop them at the gate they're entering system trough, idiot Roll
Dors Venabily
United Starbase Systems
#64 - 2011-10-15 21:04:19 UTC
Well Jump bridges, Jump Freighters, and Carriers and other super caps should have their effective range cut in half.
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2011-10-16 09:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Inappropriate comments removed.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2011-10-16 09:39:18 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
1) It is a supercapital relative to its next lower tier, what's so hard to understand about this?
The fact that you've just invented an arbitrary definition of “supercap” that is not consistent with what sets supercaps apart.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-10-16 15:49:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
1) It is a supercapital relative to its next lower tier, what's so hard to understand about this?
The fact that you've just invented an arbitrary definition of “supercap” that is not consistent with what sets supercaps apart.

You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2011-10-16 16:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
steave435 wrote:
You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary.
Yes, totally arbitrary because the ability is not that massively improved, because the EHP increase is rather small, and because cost was correctly ruled out as a factor in the OP. Most of all, it's arbitrary because they do share any of the characteristics that set the actual supercaps apart from normal caps.

You are basically trying to argue that BlackOps and Blockade Runners are supercaps. Good luck. Ugh

JFs are not supercaps by any stretch of the imagination. They're simply standard, very very weak, jump-capable caps (who gain access to highsec as compensation for that weakness), whereas freighters are standard, very very weak, non-jumping caps (who get lower building requirements as compensation for lacking functionality that could otherwise be considered standard on caps).

In fact, you might rather be able to argue that normal freighters are not caps at all, because that makes a hell of a lot more sense than trying to fit JFs into a supercap category that they have exactly zero in common with.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#69 - 2011-10-16 16:40:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Yes, totally arbitrary because the ability is not that massively improved, because the EHP increase is rather small, and because cost was correctly ruled out as a factor in the OP. Most of all, it's arbitrary because they do share any of the characteristics that set the actual supercaps apart from normal caps.

You are basically trying to argue that BlackOps and Blockade Runners are supercaps. Good luck. Ugh

JFs are not supercaps by any stretch of the imagination. They're simply standard, very very weak, jump-capable caps (who gain access to highsec as compensation for that weakness), whereas freighters are standard, very very weak, non-jumping caps (who get lower building requirements as compensation for lacking functionality that could otherwise be considered standard on caps).

In fact, you might rather be able to argue that normal freighters are not caps at all, because that makes a hell of a lot more sense than trying to fit JFs into a supercap category that they have exactly zero in common with.


I said cost shouldn't be a factor in reasoning why it should be so good, not that cost should be discounted in defining its role.

I already addressed the Black Ops issue, since you brought up Blockade Runners, even though you are attempting to confuse the issue, let's discuss it. Blockade Runners do gain logistical ability over their T1 version, but in their course of moving stuff their bonuses don't synergize with game mechanics to make this job near invulnerable.

Perhaps the Freighter should not be considered a capital in your definition of 'capital'. But you are just skirting the issue that relative to its next lower tier it gains massive logistical ability. Ability that works with game mechanics to keep it near 100% safe performing its role.

By redefining the terms I have used to describe the Jump Freighter you are attempting to marginalize the issue.

It doesn't matter what words I use to describe the problem, because the problem exists.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2011-10-16 17:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Centra Spike wrote:
I said cost shouldn't be a factor in reasoning why it should be so good, not that cost should be discounted in defining its role.
…but dismissing cost is dismissing cost. If we are allowed to look at cost as part of the balancing act, then the JFs pretty much immediately get disqualified from supercap status since they don't really follow the trend.
Quote:
I already addressed the Black Ops issue, since you brought up Blockade Runners, even though you are attempting to confuse the issue, let's discuss it. Blockade Runners do gain logistical ability over their T1 version, but in their course of moving stuff their bonuses don't synergize with game mechanics to make this job near invulnerable.
Ehm… Funny that you say that. That's pretty much exactly what BRs do: they (massively) sacrifice the primary job — moving stuff in bulk — for an additional ability and some manoeuvrability tweaks that, in total, increase their survivability to the point of near invulnerability.
Quote:
Perhaps the Freighter should not be considered a capital in your definition of 'capital'.
…and that definition is at least as logical as yours is. The fact of the matter is that JFs are quite obviously just standard caps, and arguably, freighters are not, since JFs are just like any ordinary cap is, and freighters are not. This is a far clearer parallel than trying to assign the label of “supercap” onto JFs when they don't share a single one of the defining characteristics of supercaps.
Quote:
But you are just skirting the issue that relative to its next lower tier it gains massive logistical ability.
…such as losing out on a vast majority of its carrying capacity. However, this kind of rebalancing of abilities does not make it a supercap. It just makes it a standard T2 variation on a T1 hull, much like blops, or BRs, or exhumers, or HACs, or (etc). It follows that pattern to a T, not the pattern from cap to supercap.
Quote:
By redefining the terms I have used to describe the Jump Freighter you are attempting to marginalize the issue.
But redefining them to inflate the issue is a-ok? Right… Roll

Your entire problem here is that you're trying to squeeze your wish to alter the abilities of a ship into a completely unrelated change and thus ride on its coat-tails. If you had skipped that bit and instead argued the problem on its own merits, or attached it to the actual and on-going discussion about nullsec logistics, your complaint would not have seemed nearly as silly.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#71 - 2011-10-16 18:40:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…but dismissing cost is dismissing cost. If we are allowed to look at cost as part of the balancing act, then the JFs pretty much immediately get disqualified from supercap status since they don't really follow the trend.


You are arguing a point I never made, you attempted to say that I said cost shouldn't be a factor. I corrected you.

Quote:
Ehm… Funny that you say that. That's pretty much exactly what BRs do: they (massively) sacrifice the primary job — moving stuff in bulk — for an additional ability and some manoeuvrability tweaks that, in total, increase their survivability to the point of near invulnerability.


Really? You consider being able to jump in dock range and under session timer parallel to being able to cloak and be more maneuverable? Please.

Quote:
…and that definition is at east as logical as yours is. The fact of the matter is that JFs are quite obviously just standard caps, and arguably, freighters are not, since JFs are just like any ordinary cap is, and freighters are not. This is a far clearer parallel than trying to assign the label of “supercap” onto JFs when they don't share a single one of the defining characteristics of supercaps.


The defining thing of supercaps is they are a 'super' version of the next tier down.

Quote:
…such as losing out on a vast majority of its carrying capacity. However, this kind of rebalancing of abilities does not make it a supercap. It just makes it a standard T2 variation on a T1 hull, much like blops, or BRs, or exhumers, or HACs, or (etc). It follows that pattern to a T, not the pattern from cap to supercap.


What T2 version of any ship gains the ability to perform its job with impunity by abusing game mechanics besides the Jump Freighter?

Quote:

Your entire problem here is that you're trying to squeeze your wish to alter the abilities of a ship into a completely unrelated change and thus ride on its coat-tails. If you had skipped that bit and instead argued the problem on its own merits, or attached it to the actual and on-going discussion about nullsec logistics, your complaint would not have seemed nearly as silly.


No, my entire problem here is that the step up in logistical capability from the Freighter to the Jump Freighter is unbalanced. I chose to post this thread during the on-going supercapital nerf because it would spark discussion.

Follow us @PLIRC!
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2011-10-16 19:09:04 UTC
If you change JFs so they can't haul anything else than minerals, then you're actually keeping them from moving stacks of 425mm railguns or other commodity items we use to compress minerals. That means, you can't do it. Or make it so the JF have a mineral bay of something like 800k, and a regular bay of 50k for various modules and such.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-10-16 19:13:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
steave435 wrote:
You mean like massively improved ability to perform their role compared to their standard capital version combined with increased EHP and MUCH higher cost? Yeah, totally arbitrary.
Yes, totally arbitrary because the ability is not that massively improved, because the EHP increase is rather small, and because cost was correctly ruled out as a factor in the OP. Most of all, it's arbitrary because they do share any of the characteristics that set the actual supercaps apart from normal caps.

You are basically trying to argue that BlackOps and Blockade Runners are supercaps. Good luck. Ugh

I can't believe I have to explain this...
JFs are supercaps because they're a super version of a capital. Black ops and blockade runners are not super caps because they are super version of something that is NOT a capital (freighters and JFs are, as evidenced by what the capitals-only DD will be able to fire at).
And not massively improved? Try for example moving stuff from jita to amamake. A freighter can carry 3 times as much, but it has to pass trough 50 gates and jump trough a gate into low sec, while having lower agility then a JF. A JF only has to use its jump drive twice and pass trough 4 high sec gates. Guess which one is gonna get done first?


Quote:
Ehm… Funny that you say that. That's pretty much exactly what BRs do: they (massively) sacrifice the primary job — moving stuff in bulk — for an additional ability and some manoeuvrability tweaks that, in total, increase their survivability to the point of near invulnerability

Really? Try bubbles or orbiting the gate at 12k, or just wait until he's unlucky and gets put next to a can/wreck.
JFs don't sacrifice any moving capability, they take less per haul, but can make SOOOO many more trips in the same time span.

Quote:
…and that definition is at least as logical as yours is. The fact of the matter is that JFs are quite obviously just standard caps, and arguably, freighters are not, since JFs are just like any ordinary cap is, and freighters are not. This is a far clearer parallel than trying to assign the label of “supercap” onto JFs when they don't share a single one of the defining characteristics of supercaps.

That's because you seem to be stuck thinking that a supercap must be a COMBAT super cap. This is an INDUSTRIAL super cap. Thus instead of massive DPS and tank, it gets massively improved hauling ability.

Quote:
…such as losing out on a vast majority of its carrying capacity. However, this kind of rebalancing of abilities does not make it a supercap. It just makes it a standard T2 variation on a T1 hull, much like blops, or BRs, or exhumers, or HACs, or (etc). It follows that pattern to a T, not the pattern from cap to supercap.

A fact which is compensated for with the jump drive many times over.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2011-10-16 19:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasiv Deka
Unless the wiki hasnt been updated im fairly sure the jump drive uses Cyno fields which cant be opened in high sec space therefore you would still have to jump through high sec until you were within range of a low sec field.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2011-10-16 20:19:29 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
You are arguing a point I never made, you attempted to say that I said cost shouldn't be a factor. I corrected you.
Ok. Fine. Cost is a factor. That means JFs are not supercaps. They're not nearly expensive enough.
Quote:
Really? You consider being able to jump in dock range and under session timer parallel to being able to cloak and be more maneuverable?
I consider being effectively invulnerable to be comparable to being effectively invulnerable. Or, more accurately, I don't consider either of them effectively invulnerable, so the comparison holds regardless.
Quote:
The defining thing of supercaps is they are a 'super' version of the next tier down.
…which means JFs don't qualify, since they just follow the standard T2 specialisation pattern, and since the “super” in supercap does not imply what you think it does. See below…
Quote:
What T2 version of any ship gains the ability to perform its job with impunity
None. Not even the JF. Or well… I suppose if you absolutely want to stretch “with impunity” to such a ludicrous degree that it includes the JF, then BRs and HICs, and even som HACs. Many would definitely argue that recons fall into this category too at that point.
Quote:
No, my entire problem here is that the step up in logistical capability from the Freighter to the Jump Freighter is unbalanced. I chose to post this thread during the on-going supercapital nerf because it would spark discussion.
…so why this ridiculous notion that they are supercaps, when they so very clearly aren't and when it is of no relevance to your complaint?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#76 - 2011-10-16 20:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
steave435 wrote:
I can't believe I have to explain this...
JFs are supercaps because they're a super version of a capital. Black ops and blockade runners are not super caps because they are super version of something that is NOT a capital (freighters and JFs are, as evidenced by what the capitals-only DD will be able to fire at).
And not massively improved? Try for example moving stuff from jita to amamake. A freighter can carry 3 times as much, but it has to pass trough 50 gates and jump trough a gate into low sec, while having lower agility then a JF. A JF only has to use its jump drive twice and pass trough 4 high sec gates. Guess which one is gonna get done first?
JFs are not supercaps for the same reason as why Blops and BRs aren't supercaps: because they build on and further specialise on a T1 hull and sacrifice some parts for other improvements. Supercaps do none of those things.

Supercaps are defined by:
• Having specialised weaponry that normal caps can't use (or, more generalised: doing the same thing, but more).
· …as well as improved abilities when using the same equipment.
• Having immunities that normal caps do not have.
• Not being allowed to dock.
• Having an order of magnitude better defensive capabilities.
• Being their own separate ships, not based on a previously existing hull.

Of these, JFs maybe qualify for the second (sub)point.

Let's instead look at T2. T2 is defined by:
• Being based on a T1 ship.
· …and taking that T1 ship and pushing some aspects at the expense of others to create some kind of specialisation.
• Receiving some basic defensive buffs, usually through resists.

Of these, JFs qualify in every way… unsurprisingly, seeing as how they're T2 ships. Just because JFs are the only T2 capship does not mean that they are supercaps — it just means they are exactly that: T2 caps. The whole “next tier down” would mean that freighters are also supercaps (making JFs what? supersupers?) since the next tier down is the capital ship Orca — you know, that other popular and cheap industrial hauler? I suppose the Rorqual is a supercap as well…
Quote:
Really? Try bubbles or orbiting the gate at 12k, or just wait until he's unlucky and gets put next to a can/wreck. JFs don't sacrifice any moving capability, they take less per haul, but can make SOOOO many more trips in the same time span.
Now try shooting the JF when he shows up outside station or a gate. You don't even need any bubbles or orbits or cans. You can drop the charade that JFs are somehow invulnerable, because it is so silly that it seriously harms your argument.
Quote:
That's because you seem to be stuck thinking that a supercap must be a COMBAT super cap.
Learn to read. At what point did I ever mention combat? I didn't — you're just hallucinating from your feverish need to squeeze this absolute non-issue into the pattern of a completely unrelated change in the hopes that the current willingness to nerf those ships will rub off on the JFs for no particularly well-defined reason.
Quote:
This is an INDUSTRIAL super cap. Thus instead of massive DPS and tank, it gets massively improved hauling ability.
…just like any T2 variant, and completely unlike the supercaps. So no, it's not an industrial super cap — it's a T2 indy capship.
Quote:
A fact which is compensated for with the jump drive many times over.
…much like what happens with the T2 variants, but not with the supercaps (again, unsurprisingly, seeing as how we're not dealing with a supercap here, but with a T2 ship).
Sigras
Conglomo
#77 - 2011-10-16 20:44:00 UTC
You realize that all large alliances use freighters thrown around by Titans to do all their logistics because it's less to push a freighter than it is to jump a JF that same distance even though the freighter holds 3x as much.

If you really want to fix logistics disallow freighters from using titan bridges
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#78 - 2011-10-16 21:32:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ok. Fine. Cost is a factor. That means JFs are not supercaps. They're not nearly expensive enough.


I agree, make them more expensive to be inline with their supercapital peers.

Quote:
I consider being effectively invulnerable to be comparable to being effectively invulnerable. Or, more accurately, I don't consider either of them effectively invulnerable, so the comparison holds regardless.


Yeah, because there is a way to kill something in docking range under session timer.

Quote:
…which means JFs don't qualify, since they just follow the standard T2 specialisation pattern, and since the “super” in supercap does not imply what you think it does. See below…

None. Not even the JF. Or well… I suppose if you absolutely want to stretch “with impunity” to such a ludicrous degree that it includes the JF, then BRs and HICs, and even som HACs. Many would definitely argue that recons fall into this category too at that point.


See above. This mechanic applies to every cyno in docking range, if they changed the cyno mechanic to be some distance from docking range, I'd be happy with that change for a start.

Quote:
…so why this ridiculous notion that they are supercaps, when they so very clearly aren't and when it is of no relevance to your complaint?


You think they aren't supercapitals, I think they are. We could go on forever about this. But the fact remains, JFs can use the capabilties they gain over the Freighter with current game mechanics to move with impunity.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2011-10-16 21:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Centra Spike wrote:
I agree, make them more expensive to be inline with their supercapital peers.
You need to make them supercaps before you do that. But sure, that would be nice — give them some massive buffs and new hulls and new abilities to make them more worth-while.
Quote:
Yeah, because there is a way to kill something in docking range under session timer.
Yes. But why do it the hard way when you can hit them so easily elsewhere?
Quote:
See above.
Ok. So not with impunity unless we stretch the concept to such a degree that we can say the same thing about BRs and HICs, and even som HACs.
Quote:
You think they aren't supercapitals, I think they are.
And the game agrees with me.
Quote:
But the fact remains, JFs can use the capabilties they gain over the Freighter with current game mechanics to move with impunity.
…much like BRs, HICs and HACs. So what? Why this silliness about them being supercaps? It just muddies your argument.
Sigras
Conglomo
#80 - 2011-10-17 00:07:15 UTC
Ok, I don't know what measure anyone is using to say JFs are supercaps... They have no attributes unique to supercaps... The fact that they are the "best" industry ship (which is debatable) does not make them supercaps... When battleships were the biggest combat ships did that make them supercaps?