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[Winter] EW Cruisers

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ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#221 - 2012-09-14 19:52:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
CCP Fozzie - make me a happy man and bring out one of the combat lines before the weekend. Lol


The ship I am most interested in is the Omen.

-Liang



this a few hundred times :-P
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-09-14 19:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
Liang Nuren wrote:


The Drones (provided they fit 5 light ECM/5 light Warriors) would by far be the biggest threat. The Condor can just straight tank them and the others will just kill them.

-Liang

Ed: Remember, the Caracal is able to do this because its missiles go 50% faster than the Bellicose.


light missiles are getting an explosion radius (maybe it was velocity) bonus, as well as a damage bonus, dont forget that. Combined with a bonused TP, velocity rigs and a TD in the fifth midslot (assuming LSE, warp disruptor, MWD, TD, TP), you can force kite frigs to either go away or come closer and get hit. You will also be able to minimize the speed they move away from your missiles with the velocity of the bellicose because it will get up to around 2200m/s with an MWD, having around 305 velocity at max level without any speed mods. You can force them to fix their orbit or their movement which will result in you hitting with a round of paint-bonused light missiles, hitting for some big damage on a kite frig, especially if it isnt an interceptor and has 150 sig radius with its MWD on as a T1 attack frig. Combine those mids with a DC and three ballistic controls and you have a great bellicose for killing kite frigs.

Of course, the TD wouldnt affect a condor, but it has the exact same missile range as you do, if you burn at 2200m/s (overloaded even you hit 3000) you can definitely get hits off properly.

:)


Sounds like a fun fight though!

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Ark Anhammar
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2012-09-14 20:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ark Anhammar
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'd argue that we should be seeing more ships with absolutely no drones. A flight of drones is very powerful, and should be treated as such.

-Liang


The spreading drone situation really should have a second look. While it makes sense for some ships to have drones (primarily gallente, for obvious reasons, and to some extent, amar, as well as battleships for their need for anti-frigate defense), spreading drones around essentially for the sake of spreading drones around makes about as much sense as "making races specialized for the sake of specialization."

CCP Fozzie wrote:
We balance ships based on their capabilities, not on making certain races specialized just for the sake of specialization.


"The sake of specialization" is an interesting bit of language, in that races ARE specialized for "the sake of." Caldari use missiles because they're Caldari. Minmatar are speed tanked because they're Minmatar. Amarr with lasers and Gallente with drones, etc. Even taking this logic into their secondary weapon systems, we can again see specialization for "the sake of." Amarr use drones secondarily as much as Minmatar use missiles and Caldari use hybrids.

Fozzie if you're saying that there's no merit in having races specialized, then just introduce all weapon systems to all races and have hulls in every tier that reflects this. I remember reading an earlier post that the Tristan's missile launcher was removed essentially because there weren't any other missile ships in Gallente lineup and it didn't make sense to have the one missile-based Gallente ship--can't this same logic be applied to passing around drones to everyone? Even a full flight of lights is going to be nightmare for a frig pilot, much less giving these EWAR ships full-flight-medium-attack-power. Does that really make sense that these non-attack cruiser ships have the attack potential of a full flight of mediums?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#224 - 2012-09-14 20:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


The Drones (provided they fit 5 light ECM/5 light Warriors) would by far be the biggest threat. The Condor can just straight tank them and the others will just kill them.

-Liang

Ed: Remember, the Caracal is able to do this because its missiles go 50% faster than the Bellicose.


light missiles are getting an explosion radius (maybe it was velocity) bonus, as well as a damage bonus, dont forget that. Combined with a bonused TP, velocity rigs and a TD in the fifth midslot (assuming LSE, warp disruptor, MWD, TD, TP), you can force kite frigs to either go away or come closer and get hit. You will also be able to minimize the speed they move away from your missiles with the velocity of the bellicose because it will get up to around 2200m/s with an MWD, having around 305 velocity at max level without any speed mods. You can force them to fix their orbit or their movement which will result in you hitting with a round of paint-bonused light missiles, hitting for some big damage on a kite frig, especially if it isnt an interceptor and has 150 sig radius with its MWD on as a T1 attack frig. Combine those mids with a DC and three ballistic controls and you have a great bellicose for killing kite frigs.

Of course, the TD wouldnt affect a condor, but it has the exact same missile range as you do, if you burn at 2200m/s (overloaded even you hit 3000) you can definitely get hits off properly.

:)


Sounds like a fun fight though!


I don't think that your idea of how the fight would go down is quite correct. I've been flying the Condor a lot lately, and the simple fact of the matter is that even if I'm going 5-7km/s my missiles are still not going to hit someone that's going above 3.5km/s. The missile speed rigs would really be mandatory for engaging the kitey frigates. But once you start going that route you're sacrificing so much to engage kite frigs that close range frigs will probably put you down hard. And even with all of those sacrifices, it won't be particularly hard for the top threat to still be your drones.

I'm extremely confident that fights with competently flown kite frigs would end in a Bellicose dying of the frig forced off the field. 4 "unbonused" light missiles just don't hit hard enough for a single volley to matter.

-Liang

Ed: You can't compare this to what the Caracal does. The Caracal gets a 50% missile velocity bonus and has almost 60% more volley damage.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#225 - 2012-09-14 20:23:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
lots of truth.


unfortuantly lian is correct...

what we really need is for tracking compes and tracking enhacnes to also work on missiles... have a flight time bonus and speed bonus (for optimal range and fall off) and then a ex velocity bonus eq to tracking....

though tbh the condor is op untill the updated tristan comes around to kill it...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#226 - 2012-09-14 20:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
so don't fight condors, everything has weaknesses

or perhaps fit 2 BCUs and a drone damage amp

and every fight a kite frig is in should always end in them being forced off the field if they are losing...they are kiting for a reason :P

even against other interceptors. Frig killer cruisers are meant to take down AB frigs and the like, pretty much anything except interceptors, which is where destroyers are more useful (usually).

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#227 - 2012-09-14 20:29:43 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
so don't fight condors, everything has weaknesses

or perhaps fit 2 BCUs and a drone damage amp


The problem is that you're trying to assert that the Bellicose will be a fantastic anti-frigate platform... but the truth of he matter is that it's greatest weapon is 5 light drones - which makes it not really any better than any other ship. It just lacks some key bonuses to make it super effective.

Once you stop trying to shoehorn it into the Caracal's role, I'm sure you'll find other roles for it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#228 - 2012-09-14 20:31:58 UTC
Shield tanked gank Celestis: 580 dps overheated, 34k EHP (??). (or thereabouts +/- 1 overclocking rig)
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#229 - 2012-09-14 20:34:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
i'm not trying to shoehorn anything, it will work fine as an anti frigate platform. Won't be insane or anything, never said that, but will have the potential to put out the GFs, especially with TPs. If you really wanted to be annoying you could fit 3 drone damage amps on it and get 250+ dps with light drones. Maybe that's where it would become a great frig killer.

What i really want to see though is a celestis throw out medium drones that are bonused by 2 damage amps, and brawl down other ships in a fight by launching drones right on top of the person with scan res dampeners on, then pull them in before the guy gets a lock and relaunch. This would mean the drones could just continuously rip the target a new one until he died, no removing the drone DPS!

Would be an awesome tactic.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
OlRotGut
#230 - 2012-09-14 20:39:09 UTC
Any news about the EAS, frigs/ships?
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#231 - 2012-09-14 20:52:00 UTC
OlRotGut wrote:
Any news about the EAS, frigs/ships?


Sentinel et al.? Same news about everything else: "later."

Crucifier et al.? They're here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=142136&find=unread

News from the Bringing Solo Back podcast was that something like 40 ships are going to be changed in Winter, including I think the new ships. So you can tie your hopes to the math.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#232 - 2012-09-14 20:56:16 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Blah balh if i fit all my slots with PG mods and rigs i can fit a decent tank




Well imagin that it has slots to fit PG mods so you can fit bigger mods, how about that guys, OP as heck

Hay if you fit 180s on a cain you can fit TWO 1600 plates, where doooomed!

Or maybe we would like to have slots to nano fit it and enough grid to NOT waist on fitting mods all over the place.

Also TDs are OP as they are right now, the gang i fly with taks 4 every where and they make cains into jokes but at least he has his drones and newts and such, unlike ECM so its not as OP to the tear eyes out degree
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#233 - 2012-09-14 20:57:12 UTC
OlRotGut wrote:
Any news about the EAS, frigs/ships?


Apparently the EAFs and T2 cruisers are getting ewar boosts to match their T1 counterparts.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#234 - 2012-09-14 21:03:10 UTC
Great replies Fozzie, I really like the direction things are headed in. I know some of the devs mentioned earlier that HMLs might be looked at, any chance for some love for Medium Beams as well? They're downright awful.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#235 - 2012-09-14 21:06:01 UTC
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Blah balh if i fit all my slots with PG mods and rigs i can fit a decent tank




Well imagin that it has slots to fit PG mods so you can fit bigger mods, how about that guys, OP as heck

Hay if you fit 180s on a cain you can fit TWO 1600 plates, where doooomed!

Or maybe we would like to have slots to nano fit it and enough grid to NOT waist on fitting mods all over the place.

Also TDs are OP as they are right now, the gang i fly with taks 4 every where and they make cains into jokes but at least he has his drones and newts and such, unlike ECM so its not as OP to the tear eyes out degree


Obviously you didn't grasp the point where Fozzie argued that the ship is paper thin in order to get dps, and I countered by saying, hell no, it's high dps and tank if fit a certain way. But who needs to actually decode the hard language of English?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#236 - 2012-09-14 21:13:34 UTC
I'm Down wrote:

Obviously you didn't grasp the point where Fozzie argued that the ship is paper thin in order to get dps, and I countered by saying, hell no, it's high dps and tank if fit a certain way. But who needs to actually decode the hard language of English?


Please post the fit for this 50k EHP 550 DPS cruiser?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MintyRoadkill
Vulture Enterprises
Cynosural Field Theory.
#237 - 2012-09-14 21:14:05 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
Roime wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Roime wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:

You mention possible change of ECM mechanics, but could something be done to absurd dampening, too? They say move closer, but if your locking range is cut down to, say, 5-10 km or so you while your operating range is more like 30-40, moving closer is of no particular use. RSD mechanics is to be changed as well to prevent RSD from being abused while keeping them as a valid tool for fleet-warfare. Do you agree?


Butthurt because kiting can be countered now?



Not exactly. The comparison is between damps and ECM. A kiting ship is just as hosed by damps as they are by ECM, with the difference being that in the case of damps they are hosed 100% of the time, whereas with ECM you are only screwed randomly -- and this assuming that the jamming ship has appropriate racial jammers and gets good rolls.

People percieve ECM to be more powerful because they cannot fire their weapons or even watch the fight. It's frustrating. The same player feels completely different about most of the other EWAR mods, even when the ultimate outcome is identical.

If, for example, ECM didn't shut off targetting, but instead rendered a ship's weapons unable to actually HIT, most players would feel 100% better about it. They would happily blaze away until they exploded and many wouldn't even know they'd been 'jammed.' You'd see threads complaining about overpopwered damps (which prevent targetting) and urging CCP to model them after the now balanced "new ECM." It's all about perception and frustration.

As it stands today, EWAR is a battle winner. ALL EWAR. Even modules you rarely if ever see used, such as remote tracking boosters, painters, and what not, make a huge difference.


Well, exactly. Sensor damping forces a ranged ship in range, or leave, working as a counter to kiting. Not much difference with being kited- slower ship with less range is screwed.

I do agree about the psychological part, good point.

Gank, tank, logistics, mobility and EWAR all win battles. Which makes the tactical part and piloting interesting :)




No, I'd disagree with this to the extent that once jammed you have no say in the matter regardless of how you fly; damped and you can approach the target to get under the effect. Basically 1 mod has no counter except the eccm mod/implant which serves no other purpose whilst the other is countered by sensor boosting mods which do have another very useful and widely used function as well as a piloting option. The 2 are quite incomparable in my opinion.

Edit: Also, as previously noted, without seeing the modifications to ecm/td/rsd it's not possible to have a meaningful discussion about these ships, but as they stand with current mod stats then ecm is as unbalanced as current, td's are stupidly strong and rsd will remain unused for the most part.


You are aware that ECM will often miss unless you're in a frigate?
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#238 - 2012-09-14 21:15:05 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Heribeck Weathers wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Blah balh if i fit all my slots with PG mods and rigs i can fit a decent tank




Well imagin that it has slots to fit PG mods so you can fit bigger mods, how about that guys, OP as heck

Hay if you fit 180s on a cain you can fit TWO 1600 plates, where doooomed!

Or maybe we would like to have slots to nano fit it and enough grid to NOT waist on fitting mods all over the place.

Also TDs are OP as they are right now, the gang i fly with taks 4 every where and they make cains into jokes but at least he has his drones and newts and such, unlike ECM so its not as OP to the tear eyes out degree


Obviously you didn't grasp the point where Fozzie argued that the ship is paper thin in order to get dps, and I countered by saying, hell no, it's high dps and tank if fit a certain way. But who needs to actually decode the hard language of English?


Think your mistaking moderate tank and drake dps in Purrrrrfect conditions, I think Fozzie himself mentions something about paper dps not beign a real argument guess english is hard to read after all
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2012-09-14 21:36:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm Down wrote:

Obviously you didn't grasp the point where Fozzie argued that the ship is paper thin in order to get dps, and I countered by saying, hell no, it's high dps and tank if fit a certain way. But who needs to actually decode the hard language of English?


Please post the fit for this 50k EHP 550 DPS cruiser?

-Liang

I ETF the last fix that was presented, hit about 20k ehp with a perfect tengu booster, and hit 475 dps with drones, before overheating. But is was also over CPU and power grid, by about 1% each, easily fixed with implants. But they both take slot 6 so something will not work. Btw the empty mid slot is still empty

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#240 - 2012-09-14 21:58:25 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Obviously you didn't grasp the point where Fozzie argued that the ship is paper thin in order to get dps, and I countered by saying, hell no, it's high dps and tank if fit a certain way. But who needs to actually decode the hard language of English?
Because in the face of well presented fact why bother to re-evaluate your stance, when you can instead double down on stupidity? u r mai hero!


Liang Nuren wrote:
The ship I am most interested in is the Omen.

-Liang
You are wrong. That is not what you meant to say.

Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vexor for me.
That is what you meant to say. There is no other cruiser than the Vexor. NONE!