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Why me no hurty him??
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Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#21 - 2012-09-05 14:28:37 UTC
Well, looking at your kill he was in a T2 Frigate (Assault Ship) and you were in just an Incursus. You basically had no chance, although some people will want to argue about it and base their arguments on edge cases.

Mr Giraffe wrote:
Have I been lied to? Have I been the victim of some great jest?


Pretty much, yes. People will say all sorts of inspirational things to newbies, but what it all boils down to is that PvP is mostly decided by what ship you're flying and how it's fit. I'm sorry, people will yaddle on about "dictating range", but guess what: your ship has to be fit properly in order to dictate range (propulsion mods, long-range weaponry, etc). And even then, no matter how "skilled" you are at clicking space, there's just some ship matches that will always be a lose for you. 9/10 that Imperial Navy Slicer is going to kill that Rifter. Sure, if you put a "skilled" player in the Rifter, maybe in an extreme case he can slingshot the Slicer and kill it, but mostly speaking, he won't.

Now, the real "player skill" in PvP comes down to things like situational awareness, understanding game mechanics (tracking, sig radius) gathering quick intel on potential targets, picking your engagements, and understanding ships and how they work.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#22 - 2012-09-05 14:46:20 UTC
Mr Giraffe wrote:

Ive read plenty of posts saying that new players can compete with older characters, I was day 2 and he hd been playing for over 3 years. I hadnt expected to win the fight but I would have liked to give a decent showing if Im honest. Had I even managed to get him into armour I would have been excited!!!

Have I been lied to? Have I been the victim of some great jest? Dunno but its not gonna stop me trying to get into scraps.


You haven't been lied to. New players have a critical role in organized PVP because they are great at Tackling

New players are the anvil on which skilled players get smashed - they lock enemies in place by flying fast moving ships like your Incursus so that that their buddies can come in and kill them.

How?

An important game mechanic in everything from solo fights to fleet engagements is preventing enemies from warping off. Warp Disruptors and Scramblers are the modules that do it.

To use them you have to lock on to your enemy and engage the module.

No matter how long a player has been playing, a powerful battlecruiser or cruiser will take much longer to lock on to a target than a humble T1 Frigate. This is where the new players come into their PVP niche. They can quickly get locks on key targets at the start and during fights, prevent the targets from escaping, and enable their destruction.

Many times, amazing kills could not have been made without the presence of a noob in a hunble Frigate racing around tackling the enemy.


====================================

Having said that, solo play by noobs is also possible. Here is the first entry of a great blog charting the evolution of one capsuleer from humble n00b trying to figure out PVP, to feared pirate gleefully raping whatever he finds. I found this blog inspirational for my PVP.

http://flight-of-dragons.blogspot.com/2011/02/wow-i-have-blog.html
Mr Giraffe
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-09-13 17:06:44 UTC
Thanks for all the replies/reads chaps, tons and tons of decent advice to follow.

So Attempt number 3.

Was roaming around in Gallente space and spied a fella in a cruiser dumping ore into a jet can. After checking out his pilot information he was about 2-3 weeks older than me so I figured I might get a fight out of it. I nips over to him, flips the can and began orbiting at 500 mtrs and the dude warps off.

Now, Im thinking he is going to come back in a combat ship and Ill get a fun fun fight with somone my own skill level.

Silly me.

About 5 miniutes later a red jumps into the astroid belt, I get the lock and realise this is a Tech II cruiser...arse.. Within 10 seconds my capacitor is dry and my ship is a small yet rapidly expanding cloud of debris, again, I dont even think I managed to press the "fire" button.

Very dissapointing.

So far I have yet to find an opponent that will "fight fair" ok I have only been in 2 fights and a scrape so far but I cant seem to find someone I can at least have a decent dust up with. I dont mind being outclassed, hell just about everyone outclasses me but a fight I have a chance of winning would be nice.

To be fair, the fellow who nuked me did let me have my pod and did say he would have brough something smaller had he know what ship I was in and how old the character was. A couple of his corp mates offered me some one on ones but I had about 500k isk and the starting frigate.

Ive spent the last few days ratting to make enough cash to replace the incursus I lost so I shall be out and about looking for more people who wish to throw ammo at me!! I will get a kill damnit.

Please dont consider me as complaining Eve is unfair and Im not looking for Queensbury Rules. Pixel combat in Eve is what it is, a Dirty fighting underhanded adrenaline fueled whore that keeps you comming back for more and I accept I shall spend however long I deal with her Broke and in pixalated pain. I had however I had been clever picking my fight rather carefully. WRONG. Maybe one will get to explode me tonight

I always stick my neck out
Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#24 - 2012-09-13 17:21:59 UTC
Mr Giraffe wrote:
Now, Im thinking he is going to come back in a combat ship and Ill get a fun fun fight with somone my own skill level.

Silly me.

About 5 miniutes later a red jumps into the astroid belt, I get the lock and realise this is a Tech II cruiser...arse.. Within 10 seconds my capacitor is dry and my ship is a small yet rapidly expanding cloud of debris, again, I dont even think I managed to press the "fire" button.

Very dissapointing.

So far I have yet to find an opponent that will "fight fair"


Suggestion:

Spam d-scan so you can tell what's about to land on you. It's possible you could have seen the T2 cruiser inbound and warped off, first.

Also, fights are rarely, if ever fair, and when it does happen, it's usually arranged (like in RvB) or someone did something wrong. When you go into a fight, you should endeavor to have every advantage possible on your side. ;)

Quote:
ok I have only been in 2 fights and a scrape so far but I cant seem to find someone I can at least have a decent dust up with. I dont mind being outclassed, hell just about everyone outclasses me but a fight I have a chance of winning would be nice.


You might consider joining RvB for a bit. You can ask for 1v1s to your heart's content, including fights to hull (so you don't lose your ship). Can be a good place to learn some basics before taking off into the great black to strike out on your own. ;)

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"
Ji Sama
Akira Industries
#25 - 2012-09-13 19:30:57 UTC
Fair fight = stalemate
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-09-13 19:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Mr Giraffe wrote:

So far I have yet to find an opponent that will "fight fair" ok I have only been in 2 fights and a scrape so far but I cant seem to find someone I can at least have a decent dust up with. I dont mind being outclassed, hell just about everyone outclasses me but a fight I have a chance of winning would be nice.


Heads up.

There are NO fair fights in EVE.

Either one of the parties already has and advantage that he knows off

*Neutral reppers*
*Off grid boosters*
*Fleet next door to warp in*
*Superious skills*
*Better ship in the fight - each ship has good and bad points, if you know them you know how to counter your enemy*

Also, he let your POD live cause of 2 reasons:

1.) GCC you got form stealing from the can only counts for your ship.
2.) Killing a pod is one quick way to get you locked out of high-sec due to sec status loss.

Again, he had the advantage of knowing that and it wasn't being nice to you. It was just being nice to himself.

Last thing I want to add: Get in a corp. They can help you a lot with questions, tactics and just in plain old fights.
RvB is all about small sized ship PvP, why not try them out.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2012-09-13 20:16:54 UTC

I have some suggestions for you:

1.) Despite the whine by Ghanna Whynn, skills don't matter too much in EvE, but they do initially matter. A 1 week old player CAN kill a 6 yr old player, when the 1-week player starts the engagement properly. Ghanna is correct in that a well skilled pilot will have advantages over a younger pilot, but the skill system in EvE, which quickly lets you achieve skills to level IV, means the all lvl-V pilot only has minor advantages (which OFTEN do NOT matter).

2.) You're looking for fights in highsec.... Fighting in highsec generally happens under one of three situations: A suicide gank (A rifter lacks the firepower to suicide gank most ships), a war target (you need to be in a corp and at war), or can thieving. Can thieving is typically a BAD idea when you are learning to PvP. The mechanic basically means you give a 15min attack-me-when-your-ready card to your opponents entire corp. While you can get lucky and find a good fight, most of EvE's players either won't bother with you, or will bring an uzi to your proposed knife fight.

3.) EvE PvP is often non-consensual and often unfair. You'll discover this when you start to PvP in lowsec and nullsec. Most people run unless they think they can win (either they are in a bigger ship, they have friends, or they think they are just likely to win). I've found only one of your losses on EvE Kill, and the fit could use some improvement. Your fit is very... honor driven... as It lacks a warp disruption module, which means your opponent can warp off if they are losing the fight. In short, you won't be able to hold a mining barge in place to kill it.

An old salesman joke I like to tell: Joey, a man with a lisp, wants to sell ACME toothbrushes, but the hiring manager just doesn't think people can see past his lisp. Out of pity, the manage gives the man a try, and Joey puts in 150% effort to sell toothbrushes, but has abysmal sales. The manager extends his trial for another week, and this time the man with a lisp works as hard as humanly possible, yet only sells a handful of toothbrushes. The Manager, against his better judgement, extends his trial for one last week, but leaves the man with the advice: All good salesman have a gimmick.... The next week, the man with a lisp sets a company record for selling toothbrushes, and explains his success: -- It was easy, I'd just setup a stand in the airport saying "Freeee Tacos". People would come up and take a taco, bite into it, and then exclaim, "Yuck, thisss tastes like SSHIITT!!!". I'd point out it is... and offer sell them a toothbrush!

4.) What is your Gimmick? Looking at the above fit, I suspect you're pretty much trying to heads-up brawl with your opponent. To put it in perspective, this is like an amateur getting into a boxing ring with Michael Tyson and hoping to win by swapping punches blow for blow. In EvE, the reality is an amateur can kick the crap out of Tyson, but to do it, they need to have a strategy that minimizes Tyson's strengths and maximizes their own. I spent my early EvE career decimating t2 frigates with very inexpensive, cheapass t1 frigates, but I didn't win by fighting straight up. I had a strategy.... and that is something you need to work on.

5.) Continuing on with this line of thought, you need to keep several things in mind when engaging a target:
-- What is your ship's strength and how do you maximize it? An incursus has excellent local tank, and decent in your face close range dps.
-- What is your ship's weaknesses and how do you minimize them? Neutron blasters have poor tracking and a short range. So orbiting your target might be detrimental to your damage output, and you need to be close to your target to apply damage.
-- What is your opponents strengths & weaknesses? Show info on the ships and look at the ship bonuses. Much of this takes time to learn, but knowing how a ship is potentially fit and it's strengths and weaknesses is EXTREMELY important to defeating it (especially when defeating it in an under-rated ship with a low sp character).
-- This is just a very general overview: But most ships you encounter fall into one of two categories.... close range brawlers with good tanks (active or buffer), good dps, but poor range projection or long range kiters with weaker tanks, lighter dps, but excellent range projection. There are many ways you can fit your ship to negate an opponents strengths and maximize your own, and you need to do this! You really should have a gimmick or strategy to win!!!

Finally, I don't know your timezone, but if you can be on both Sept 15/16 from 02:00-06:00 EvE time, send me a PM soon... I might be able to hook you up in our next class. Agony runs PvP Classes for the general EvE community that wish to learn to PvP. At the minimum, you should look at PvP University Wiki Pages
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#28 - 2012-09-13 22:00:11 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I
-- What is your opponents strengths & weaknesses? Show info on the ships and look at the ship bonuses. Much of this takes time to learn, but knowing how a ship is potentially fit and it's strengths and weaknesses is EXTREMELY important to defeating it (especially when defeating it in an under-rated ship with a low sp character).


Another little hint here: If you are within 100km of your opponent, you can "look at" his ship and check out what kind of guns he has fitted, long range or short range, if any at all (stay away from seemingly unarmed battleships, those smartbombs HURT Ugh).

This requires some knowledge of ships and guns, but hey, this is Eve, very little comes free (missiles of course work differently).

If you keep on it, eventually you might even be able to get an idea how a ship is tanked just by checking its speed....

Je suis Paris // Köln // Brüssel // Orlando // Nice // Würzburg, München, Ansbach // Saint-Étienne-du-Rouvray

Je suis Berlin // Fort Lauderdale // London // St. Petersburg // Stockholm

Je suis [?]
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-09-14 03:20:10 UTC
As a side note to what everyone else is saying: A brand new players best place in PVP is next to friends. Sure you don't do much damage but there are two very important things that newbies have in their favor when entering even small gang PVP.

1. Since you are new your guns aren't nearly as important as your scram/warp disruptor. A lot of doctrines will call for DPS ships to not even pack tackle, assuming either tackling specialists like interceptors or assault frigates will do it OR barring that... two day old newbies in rifters.

2. You are pretty fast. If you light your MWD and get under the traversal of a battleships guns: There's not much he can do to hurt you unless he pops drones. Battleship pilots that just got jumped by a gang tend to forget to drop drones to kill tackle.

So go fast. Tackle things.
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Dogs
Out of the Blue.
#30 - 2012-09-14 12:23:16 UTC
If I were you, I would take a few hours to read the Wiki and learn the damn ships! In highsec, you have the advantage that you have some control over who you engage. You picked a fight with what you though was a Rifter which turned out to be its bad ass big brother.

I did the same a few weeks ago. I was Jet Can mining in my Cormorant, got can flipped by some ********, got pissed off and thinking the only people who would can flip me would be industrials.

You can imagine the language filling the room after I realised I just starting engaging a T3 Strategic Cruiser with my single light missile launcher!

You best bet is to get training on scanning, get some combat probes and pick your fights from a safe spot in Low Sec. Give it time and you will soon find a T1 frig or dessie that you will have a change of taking. One thing to point out, keep your eye open for other combat probes. You dont want to be caught with your pants down in a safe spot with a bad ass T2 warping in on top of you.

You were not lied to. You just need to be patient and learn what you can and cant take on. If the Ship has an orange triangle with II in it, leave him well along in Highsec and GTFO in low sec.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#31 - 2012-09-14 14:24:24 UTC
Kudos on having the balls.

Honestly however:

Trial and error is what you are doing. If you want "Free fights" and cheap ones at that, go to low security. Fly around, and look silly. They will come. Look for statis plexes, often camped by one or two players in ship similar to your own. Try to kill them. Be killed by them. Etc. Make friends. Make enemies!

In reality, you will eventually come across a shipthat suits your playing and fighting style, but untill then you pretty muc hhave to start somewhere and you'll try everythign out. :)
darmwand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-09-14 14:44:01 UTC
Hey!

Good to see new people getting their guns dirty. I think a lot of people have already given a lot of great advice, the only thing that I could possibly add is that if you ever find yourself in the Placid area, convo me and we can do some fighting "to the hull". That way you can figure out how to best use your ship and guns without replacing them all the time.

Ah also, despite what some people keep saying, there is such a thing as fair fights in EVE. I don't know about high-sec but in low there are a lot of "hoborable pirates" that, when agreeing to a 1v1, will honor it.

Other than that, just keep trying. A lot of (high-sec) people think that bigger is better and sooner or later you will find a cruiser that tries to shoot at you, and you will kill him simply by orbiting at 500 and chewing through his tank with your blasters (just watch out for drones).

Anyway. Welcome to EVE and good luck!

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."
Mr Giraffe
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-09-19 09:26:43 UTC
Hey guys, so I sorted my subscription out and logged in to some very nice emails,

I want to thank a few people who sent me cash and a whole stack of advice after reading this thread.

First, ISK Bank who was very generous with both ISK and advice and secondly Gallastian Khanid who provided the same, I also got a Corp invite but it didn’t really suit me due to the limited time I get to play (and I’m not a social animal).

In honour of the donations received I went out looking for a scrap and figured I would combine some ratting as I’ve discovered I can handle the 500k BS rats in my little Incursus and hope that I came across another player.

After 20 minutes of so and 1.2M ISK of NPC bounties I see a Hurricane warp in to the belt...

Run I hear you cry!! You cant fight that you say??

Turns out I should have and I couldn’t.

I locked him up, punched the after burner and shot into a 500 metre orbit and proceeded to start grinding in to his shields, and surprisingly I was making some headway, the shields were taking damage and after 30 seconds or so I was about a 5th into them, I hit the repairer as I was into armour having taken some hits on the way in. Nothing, seems my capacitor was empty, I fired up the Cap Recharger and started to pulse the repairer but there was just too much being drained and it couldn’t keep up, my Afterburner, capacitor charger and armour repairer all shut down, It was only a matter of time before I exploded which I did in due course.

This was actually my best fight to date; while I was slaughtered there was a decent learning curve this fight. I manually piloted into an orbit trying to keep the transversal up, I was about 25% into armour when I hit the 500 metre orbit and his guns were struggling to hit me which means I think I was under his optimal for the artillery he was using, when they did hit it wasn’t for much damage but my ship had quite low hit points so the damage began to mount quickly.

Also pulsing my armour repairer helped save some capacitor, not much but I meant I survived longer and meant I could actually get some damage on him, not much, but this is the most I’ve managed thus far.

Again I suffered from capacitor draining modules, this is a problem as the optimal range for my blasters is on 1000 metre with 3850 falloff, I assume the Vampires hit out to 5-10k so it looks like I’m always going to suffer this using very short range weapons. Rail guns might be the way to go but the damage is frankly seems shockingly bad and killing anything may be a problem (more than it is now!!)

The chap was great, exchanged good fight in local and he gave me some advice on fitting and what I did wrong, also told me he only attacked me because I locked and aggressed him, then he sent me 2m ISK to replace my ship.

Despite all the I have heard and read about the nasty cut throat, evil, backstabbing and down right nasty gits in Eve I have yet to meet one. I have had nothing but help and support thus far, I don’t doubt that I will be shown no mercy when/if I stop being a Newb and Im sure that I will eventually run into one, but so far the community is friggin awesome.

I’m going to train all the races frigates, all the small turrets and the destroyers skills to see if blasters are really the way to go, I figure at 700k SP all the gun skills I have will crossover to Projectile and lasers, Ill see if there is anything that suits me better before I commit to a long term training plan. I have enough cash for one each of the Minmitar and Amarr Destroyers and equipment, Ill have to run some missions to recoup the cash before I head back out to low security space but I can’t imagine that will take all that long.

I always stick my neck out
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-09-19 09:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Mr Giraffe wrote:
Hey guys, so I sorted my subscription out and logged in to some very nice emails,

I want to thank a few people who sent me cash and a whole stack of advice after reading this thread.

First, ISK Bank who was very generous with both ISK and advice and secondly Gallastian Khanid who provided the same, I also got a Corp invite but it didn’t really suit me due to the limited time I get to play (and I’m not a social animal).

In honour of the donations received I went out looking for a scrap and figured I would combine some ratting as I’ve discovered I can handle the 500k BS rats in my little Incursus and hope that I came across another player.

After 20 minutes of so and 1.2M ISK of NPC bounties I see a Hurricane warp in to the belt...

Run I hear you cry!! You cant fight that you say??

Turns out I should have and I couldn’t.

I locked him up, punched the after burner and shot into a 500 metre orbit and proceeded to start grinding in to his shields, and surprisingly I was making some headway, the shields were taking damage and after 30 seconds or so I was about a 5th into them, I hit the repairer as I was into armour having taken some hits on the way in. Nothing, seems my capacitor was empty, I fired up the Cap Recharger and started to pulse the repairer but there was just too much being drained and it couldn’t keep up, my Afterburner, capacitor charger and armour repairer all shut down, It was only a matter of time before I exploded which I did in due course.

This was actually my best fight to date; while I was slaughtered there was a decent learning curve this fight. I manually piloted into an orbit trying to keep the transversal up, I was about 25% into armour when I hit the 500 metre orbit and his guns were struggling to hit me which means I think I was under his optimal for the artillery he was using, when they did hit it wasn’t for much damage but my ship had quite low hit points so the damage began to mount quickly.

Also pulsing my armour repairer helped save some capacitor, not much but I meant I survived longer and meant I could actually get some damage on him, not much, but this is the most I’ve managed thus far.

Again I suffered from capacitor draining modules, this is a problem as the optimal range for my blasters is on 1000 metre with 3850 falloff, I assume the Vampires hit out to 5-10k so it looks like I’m always going to suffer this using very short range weapons. Rail guns might be the way to go but the damage is frankly seems shockingly bad and killing anything may be a problem (more than it is now!!)

The chap was great, exchanged good fight in local and he gave me some advice on fitting and what I did wrong, also told me he only attacked me because I locked and aggressed him, then he sent me 2m ISK to replace my ship.

Despite all the I have heard and read about the nasty cut throat, evil, backstabbing and down right nasty gits in Eve I have yet to meet one. I have had nothing but help and support thus far, I don’t doubt that I will be shown no mercy when/if I stop being a Newb and Im sure that I will eventually run into one, but so far the community is friggin awesome.

I’m going to train all the races frigates, all the small turrets and the destroyers skills to see if blasters are really the way to go, I figure at 700k SP all the gun skills I have will crossover to Projectile and lasers, Ill see if there is anything that suits me better before I commit to a long term training plan. I have enough cash for one each of the Minmitar and Amarr Destroyers and equipment, Ill have to run some missions to recoup the cash before I head back out to low security space but I can’t imagine that will take all that long.


And this is the attitude why people are nice to you.

Rage, whine or complain and people are likely to be cold hearted and cut throated.

Accept criticism and ask and learn from advice and people usually are very nice and willing to help you.

Of course being a new player does help too, as people who killed you see that you are still a new player so usually in their opinion it wasn't a balanced fight (their knowledge of the game, SP, ISK and history means they had an advantage on you) and will do anything to help you get up your feet. Usually only for 1 reason, to keep you playing the game, evolve and learn. So eventually they might meet you again and have a proper fight with you.

Loosing a ship doesn't mean you lost the fight. Fights can be won on multiple fronts.

You can loose a ship yet win the ISK war in a larger fight/war.
You can loose a ship yet learn a lot from that loss, where as the winner only learned he killed you (this is what happened to you)
You can loose a ship yet gave the fleet you were flying in time to get away or get closer to the fight.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#35 - 2012-09-19 12:13:42 UTC
I can't add to any of the advice already given, however big up for having the balls to go straight into PvP many spend years trying to avoid it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ghanna Whynn
Kingfisher Industries
The Gentlemen's Club of EVE
#36 - 2012-09-19 19:58:53 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I have some suggestions for you:

1.) Despite the whine by Ghanna Whynn, skills don't matter too much in EvE, but they do initially matter. A 1 week old player CAN kill a 6 yr old player, when the 1-week player starts the engagement properly. Ghanna is correct in that a well skilled pilot will have advantages over a younger pilot, but the skill system in EvE, which quickly lets you achieve skills to level IV, means the all lvl-V pilot only has minor advantages (which OFTEN do NOT matter).



Wow, somehow mentioning that I am filled with laughter at the falsehoods spread is whining. You do seem confused as you agreewith me (do initially matter), then agree some more (well skilled pilot will have advantages)then agree some more (only has minor advantages). But then just say those advantages don't matter.

We are talking about a hypothetical fair fight, where our hero baits someone (can flip) and that person fights in a ship identinal except for player skill points. We are not talking hero tackle, nor sniper battle. Man to man, PvP in the open.the guy with all 5s will have a 5% advantage in every category over someone with all 4s(all 4s is still going to be 3-6 months of training for frig combat if not more...well off of our couple week old example). 10 in some. Sure some wont matter (cap recharge for instance as we are using boosters)but others will stack.

I never said it was a bad way to handle skills. I am just pointing out that it is a real thing that pilots need to consider, and anyone that says there is not an advantage to having all those 5s is not being honest. Yes it is something that a good pilot can overcome, but I still find it funny that people pretend it is not there.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#37 - 2012-09-19 21:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Ghanna Whynn wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I have some suggestions for you:

1.) Despite the whine by Ghanna Whynn, skills don't matter too much in EvE, but they do initially matter. A 1 week old player CAN kill a 6 yr old player, when the 1-week player starts the engagement properly. Ghanna is correct in that a well skilled pilot will have advantages over a younger pilot, but the skill system in EvE, which quickly lets you achieve skills to level IV, means the all lvl-V pilot only has minor advantages (which OFTEN do NOT matter).



Wow, somehow mentioning that I am filled with laughter at the falsehoods spread is whining. You do seem confused as you agreewith me (do initially matter), then agree some more (well skilled pilot will have advantages)then agree some more (only has minor advantages). But then just say those advantages don't matter.


Here's your post:

Ghanna Whynn wrote:
I lol every time I hear someone say player skills.are what matters and character skills don't. Just an fyi, that 3 year old toon, even if fit the same way as you probibly has 20-25% more shields, armor, hull, cap, speed, range, tracking, damage, cap regen, shield regen, repair rate, repair amounts, rate of fire....the list goes on. Yes I am assuming that nearly 1/3 of his skill points are in something relevent to the fight...but chances are that is the case. If he is 100% miner, he would still have more cap/regen/speed/agi/hull hp just from the skills he needs as a miner.

In addition to the direct % boosts his skills give him to everything relevent, he can also fit his ship out with items that are annother 10-50% better than what a two day old character can fit. The only way player skills will overcome that gap is if the other guy is asleep, or a complete moron.

You will find morons, and sleeping pilots, but most of the time you will find someone who enjoys blowing up noobs and to them you will lose almost every time.


I'm not saying don't try, as player skills matter and you only get those by trying, but take whatever some says about skill points not nattering with a grain of salt...and a shot of whisky.


Sorry,while I know tone is hard to portray in text, the negativity and fatalism within your post made me categorize it as whining...
Off dictionary.com: Whining: A feeble, peevish complaint.... aka: an intellectually weak, fretful complaint.

You factually point out the benefits skillpoints give you over a brand new character, which is true. I state they are initially important, as you need a certain basic level of skills to even fit appropriate PvP modules. Also, thanks to EvE's skill system, it takes very little time to reduce those 25% advantages to 10% advantages or less.

You then give an intellectually weak statement: "The only way player skills will overcome the [sp] gap is if the other guy is asleep, or a complete moron."

You can easily overcome sp gaps by player skill, creative fitting, and the use of tactics. And I can provide many, many personal examples where I've solo'd every interceptor in game using t1 frigs, we're I've solo'd vagabonds, rapiers, drakes, and canes in interceptors, and many and more examples where tactics and pilot skill are what truly determine victory...

Ghanna Whynn wrote:
We are talking about a hypothetical fair fight, where our hero baits someone (can flip) and that person fights in a ship identinal except for player skill points. We are not talking hero tackle, nor sniper battle. Man to man, PvP in the open.the guy with all 5s will have a 5% advantage in every category over someone with all 4s(all 4s is still going to be 3-6 months of training for frig combat if not more...well off of our couple week old example). 10 in some. Sure some wont matter (cap recharge for instance as we are using boosters)but others will stack.


Why are we talking about identically fit ships and fair fights?? This is EvE PvP.... people don't fight fair...
Is it fair for a Wolf, or Harpy, or Slicer, or Thrasher to hunt down and attack my Helios? I guarantee you fairness wasn't in their mindset when they engaged... and from their comments in local, they thought it was terribly unfair that my helios returned fire! The op is taking on jaguars and hurricanes in a rifter, so why do you think we talking about fair fights in identically fit ships?

Ghanna Whynn wrote:
I never said it was a bad way to handle skills. I am just pointing out that [sp] is a real thing that pilots need to consider, and anyone that says there is not an advantage to having all those 5s is not being honest. iYes [sp] is something that a good pilot can overcome, but I still find it funny that people pretend it is not there.


You have such good tidbits of wisdom burried beneath this negativity... if you were more encouraging and much less defeatist, we'd agree a lot more!
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-09-19 22:13:22 UTC
I'm with Gizznitt on this one

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-09-20 00:34:10 UTC
Join rvb...learning there will almost ensure manyany MANY fights in t1 fitted t1 frig with new and old players. There are fleet battles and 1v1's and people,willing to give you lessons and just plain school you. Also there are tons of cheap ships available for the space poor. If you join, contact me ingame and I will give you 5 fitted and rigged incursus to go blow up.

Welcome to Eve.
Ghanna Whynn
Kingfisher Industries
The Gentlemen's Club of EVE
#40 - 2012-09-20 03:57:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Sorry,while I know tone is hard to portray in text, the negativity and fatalism within your post made me categorize it as whining...


You are right in that I said that in identical ships a two day old character would only stand a chance agains an all 5s character if the all 5s was impaired. I do still stand by that and all your examples do nothing to alter that. Yes, if the younger character was in a different ship than the older one, and used that to their advantage the battle could be decided primarily on player skill. But that is not the situation I was talking about.

I was not speking specifically about the OP's situation, just to the skill points don't matter mindset. Here we have a hypothetical two day character flying a frigate. Challenging other, much older, characters also in frigates of the same basic type. Some would say that all that matters is player skill, and that is what I am saying is wrong. If you are in a "fair fight" (and I dont care that you dont believe they exist in eve, it is irrelevent to my point) with simmilarly fit ships that both fill the blaster role (or most any other streight forward role that can be filled by a young character...blaster, tackle, ECM, TP, whatever) those skill points will make a world of difference.

Player skill will keep you out of that fair fight every time! But once you are locked in it, you need to hope you have the skill points to back your ship and player skills up or chances are very good you will be the one leaving without a ship. Player skill will help you know when the fight is lost before it begins. Player skill will let you take advantage of your ships bonuses while exploiting the other ships weaknesses. Player skill will help you remember to bring your three friends to the 1v1, along with fitting your ship out better than the other guy. Player skill will remind you that when you are bringing your three friends, he might be doing the same so keep an eye on (local/d-scan/intel channels) and get ready to bug out before the blob lands.

But if you find yourself in a fair fight...player skill has already begun to fail you (and the other guy for that matter) and skill points will play a big part in the end result. Unless he is impaired, then skill points and impairments will both play a large role.

We can all come up with cases where someone in an inferier ship took out someone in a more expenseive one. My favorites are the guys that use the noob ships to take out BCs. But those have no bearing on what would happen in the case of two characters in simmilar fit ships were to meet on the field of battle while having drastically different skill points. 5% here, and 10% there can add up to make a big difference.

To put it a different way. Have you ever ended a fight with your ship in structure? 5% here and 10% there could have meant the differnce between your blowing up and you flying away (say...5% shield hp, 5% armor hp, 5% strucure hp if your remaining structure is less than 5% of your total EHP, then 1 level in each of three skills meant the difference). Have you ever just managed to catch someone before they managed to warp off (5% faster targeting speed, or 5% better range)? Any other close calls in your history of pvp, such as warping off right before the enemy tackle gets you locked (% to ship agility, % reduction in signature bloom from MWD or shield mods) or haivng just enough cap left for that final cycle of whatever that turned the tide (or atleast managed to get/save one more kill)?

Yes, player skill matters. I am not saying it does not. But skill points make a big difference in many cases, one of which being a fight in which the ships and starting positions are evenly matched. In those cases, the lower skill point person will have to do 5-20% less EHP, will do 5-20% less damage, will fire their guns/missles 5-20% slower, and repair/regen at 5-20% less of a rate. At that point, the overall differnce will be closer to 20% to 200% in favor of the guy with more skill points. When you win against those odds you can feel that you are 200% better than average...I have a suspision that in some cases part of that is actually that the other guy was not playing at 100% of average.

That might not fall under your definition of a moron (remember, you said I was whining becuase my argument was intellectually weak, and that hinged on the fact that I said the other guy had to be a moron for a 2 day old character to overcome the all 5s guy), but considering that moron is a synonym of fool and to define fool: "Noun: A person who acts unwisely or imprudently" it works for me. Yes, if someone with all 5s is beaten by a 2 day old character, I would say he (the all 5s character) was acting unwisely or imprudently. The 2 day old character might have been acting with great skill, but the other guy still had to do something unwise or the situation for that great skill to shine would not have happened.

I celebrate player skill, but at the same time recongnize the impact that character skills have. You can say that is fatalism if you want, but it isn't. Its just like when I am flying my Orca around in LS and escape a gate camp (or don't escape), I know that while part of the victory is my great skill at hitting warp I realize that some of it is also because someone in that gate camp missed. I celibrate the event for both, and queitly thank him or her for helping to spare my tears and for allowing me to bring joy to all the boys and girls with my cargo of exotic dancers.

23 different emoticons I can insert, and not one spellcheck. That makes me feel Sad Also...my heart goes out to anyone crushed by this wall of text. Please practice safe forum reading, and bring a buddy.
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