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AFK-Cloaking
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Marie Hartinez
Aries Munitions and Defense
#41 - 2012-09-13 16:31:16 UTC
What an original idea to a non-existent problem.

NEXT....

Surrender is still your slightly less painful option.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#42 - 2012-09-13 19:30:56 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
It's so fun to read the texts of people who wants to keep AFK claoking in the game.
From between the lines you can read the same thing all over.

"I claoky pvp, please do not make my cloaky pvp any harder so I do not need to think when I pvp, cause I like my pvp to be easy and then I can show off my easy kills on killboards to my pvp buddies and we can compare the size of our "guns"" oh wait "kills"


are you satisfied now with this "loser-whiner" stuff..
you can fly a covert-op too, its not forbidden.. why dont you try to develop yourself for more complicated games than rock-paper-scissors??



p.s. if you are looking a real fun, look at mirror while you are asking for "an agent who will give you a player's EXACT location as a BookMark", i bet you will have very strong laugh, short time before you feel yourself "a little bit" ridiculous..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-09-13 20:18:52 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
With out local there would be MORE null pve, if every time you enter a system you have to launch probes and scan down the system to look for ships it WILL set up a big red flag to everyone is system that probes are out (this of course assumes that people are actually watching d-scan). Like in a worm hole if you see probes out safe up and cloak. If everyone is at a safe spot and cloaked then the cyno ship cannot hot drop you.




As long as the person doing PVE is not in a belt, or in an Anomaly, or a local static beacon, right?
Cause how many probes do I need to deploy to find someone there?

And lets add not running pirate missions anywhere where the agent in likely to send them to a neighboring system.
Just get your rapier/bomber gang waiting by the undock to the agent station and follow them when they warp off to the next systems gate.

If you could always detect people attempting to find you via d-scanning for their probes then it might be viable. But 90% of nullsec PVE takes place in asteroid belts and anomalies, where no decloaking and no probes are needed to find a target.

Simply pick a system with a nice number of belts, a low truesec and wait for a ratter. Make sure to prescan and bookmark all the local anomalies just to make sure you never have to decloak or risk being seen.

I'd do it. I have 4 chars who can use covert cloaks and light a cyno, I'd stick them in prime ratting systems and just keep an eye on them while doing homework. And the poor unfortunate bastards in system with me have no real way of detecting my presence before I decloak and bump them with a covert cyno tengu or proteus.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#44 - 2012-09-13 20:37:13 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
With out local there would be MORE null pve, if every time you enter a system you have to launch probes and scan down the system to look for ships it WILL set up a big red flag to everyone is system that probes are out (this of course assumes that people are actually watching d-scan). Like in a worm hole if you see probes out safe up and cloak. If everyone is at a safe spot and cloaked then the cyno ship cannot hot drop you.




As long as the person doing PVE is not in a belt, or in an Anomaly, or a local static beacon, right?
Cause how many probes do I need to deploy to find someone there?

And lets add not running pirate missions anywhere where the agent in likely to send them to a neighboring system.
Just get your rapier/bomber gang waiting by the undock to the agent station and follow them when they warp off to the next systems gate.

If you could always detect people attempting to find you via d-scanning for their probes then it might be viable. But 90% of nullsec PVE takes place in asteroid belts and anomalies, where no decloaking and no probes are needed to find a target.

Simply pick a system with a nice number of belts, a low truesec and wait for a ratter. Make sure to prescan and bookmark all the local anomalies just to make sure you never have to decloak or risk being seen.

I'd do it. I have 4 chars who can use covert cloaks and light a cyno, I'd stick them in prime ratting systems and just keep an eye on them while doing homework. And the poor unfortunate bastards in system with me have no real way of detecting my presence before I decloak and bump them with a covert cyno tengu or proteus.

Do that work and get that kill. That work deserves some respect.

Just one problem after your prep work. You still need to know WHEN to pop that sweet trap you went to all that trouble making.

Sooo, I am thinkin you are on a patrol to all the likely places to find targets, if there is no local to advertise them to you.
And in so doing this patrol, they have a chance of noticing you too.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#45 - 2012-09-14 07:03:04 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:
Once again, a nerf ALL cloaks trying to be passed off as an anti AFK cloaking thread.


Simply remove cloakers from local. And deny that cloaker local.

- Now cloaks are really cloaked.

- Now AFK Cloaking cannot cause any fear.

- Now active cloakers have to work for more intel.

- Now system residents have to pay a little more attention to whats going on around them.

- Now (if done correctly) BOTs can be caught.


I agree with the rest but I don't think that you could avoid to get caught by a cloaky ship if you have no way to see him coming.
So if you remove cloakers from the loacal you must give option to detect them.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#46 - 2012-09-14 07:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mostro Drachenfels wrote:
DankoShepard wrote:
I would have never imagined a computer left alone while running a game would generate so much terror in so many guys, really, who'd have thought ... wow

I'm tempted to say ... Grow some b.... !!! ... but nevermind


In fact the problem is not the fear.
You must understand that is impossible to know if there is someone behind the cloaky ship hidden in the system.
It would be stupid to take the risk to lose a 1 to 20 billion ship on the idea it is "probalby" an afk cloaky ship.
If you cannot understand that, you have a problem it might be stupidity or just the fact that you are the afk cloaker :-).

Obviousliy, AFK cloakers ruin the gameplay. It is simply unfair to have no response against this method.

So then if it not "afk" cloakers you fear, the root of what you are asking for is to nerf ALL cloaking so that you can clean out your system and be able to farm risk free.


To me there should have a response to all tactics used in the game other than hiding in station and waiting.
That's true that if an out numbered ennemy come to you, you will have to hide. But that's not the only choice. You can create a fleet to go to fight. But what can you do against a cloaky guy that just waiting it's time to catch you in anomaly?
You could bait him, assuming is not AFK... So the only effective option is to not go to farm. Excellent, really Excellent....
And if you want to hunt farmers, you do not need to play afk cloaky:
http://themittani.com/features/lifestyles-blaptastic-laserzpewpew
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=190629&m=8&y=2012

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Mostro Drachenfels
Peoples Liberation Army
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2012-09-14 11:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mostro Drachenfels
Astroniomix wrote:
Mostro Drachenfels wrote:
20 billion (isk) ship

Stop ratting in supercarriers and they might go away?


Even if you farm with a rookie ship the problem remains the same... You have nothing to do against AFK cloakers. So when they will come back on keyboard they will be able to catch you if you are in a anomaly. The loss will be far less difficult to forget but I don't think you will gain as many ISK either ....
So the only solution is to leave the System. What a perfect solution!

On the other side, it is easy for the bad guys to log off when they are hunted. So we cannot catch them when they are playing and we cannot catch them when they are not playing?

My thinking: Having an influence on the game while you are not playing by boting or by afk cloaking should not be possible. It is an insult to all the players that are logged in and that are making something ingame by their actions.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#48 - 2012-09-14 12:23:23 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


I'd do it. I have 4 chars who can use covert cloaks and light a cyno, I'd stick them in prime ratting systems and just keep an eye on them while doing homework. And the poor unfortunate bastards in system with me have no real way of detecting my presence before I decloak and bump them with a covert cyno tengu or proteus.


If ur semi afk cause ur doing homework u'd probably be detected by his alt scout that (by then) would be making sure the system is clear before ratting. Because by the time they've taken out local, there is hopefully some way of getting a warp in on cloaked targets.

then the 'unfortunate bastards' notify ur presence to a pvp gang who enter system without u realising, warp on top of u and smart bomb u out of cloak. hey presto u just lost ur covert cyno tengu or proteus cause someone decided to use their brain rather than mindlessly ratting.

Or they use a ratting ship as bait for their own cyno drop.

If there is a way to check if a system is clear before entering with ur billion isk ship and ppl decide not to use it, then they deserve everything they get.

assuming the cloaky detection process is similar to scanning with probes, even if u try to keep mobile, he only has to detect that ur there. doesnt even have to pin point ur location. Also, its been a while since ive run anoms, but dnt u have to be uncloaked to use a ship scanner? forgive me if i'm wrong

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#49 - 2012-09-14 13:58:34 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
It's so fun to read the texts of people who wants to keep AFK claoking in the game.
From between the lines you can read the same thing all over.

"I claoky pvp, please do not make my cloaky pvp any harder so I do not need to think when I pvp, cause I like my pvp to be easy and then I can show off my easy kills on killboards to my pvp buddies and we can compare the size of our "guns"" oh wait "kills"


It's fun to read posts by absolute imbeciles. AFK cloaking is not pvp. It is not anything. It is an impossibility for an afk cloaker to do anything to anyone.

Additionally, what makes cloaky pvp easy? What on earth makes you think they instantly win any engagement? Are you incapable of fighting back? Do you not have an alliance backing you up? If you don't then you have no right to the rewards of nullsec anyway. You have to earn that stuff, son, and you earn it through dealing with these threats and maybe - gasp - fighting back.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#50 - 2012-09-15 13:08:17 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


It's fun to read posts by absolute imbeciles. AFK cloaking is not pvp. It is not anything. It is an impossibility for an afk cloaker to do anything to anyone.

Additionally, what makes cloaky pvp easy? What on earth makes you think they instantly win any engagement? Are you incapable of fighting back? Do you not have an alliance backing you up? If you don't then you have no right to the rewards of nullsec anyway. You have to earn that stuff, son, and you earn it through dealing with these threats and maybe - gasp - fighting back.


cloaky pvp is easier cause u cant get probed down. it carries less risk in general and allows u to better choose which fights u take part in and which ones u avoid. u also get bathroom breaks that non-cloakers dont lol

i'm not saying thats a bad thing, but i'd like to see any cloaked ship that stays in one place for long enough be tracked and eliminated. it just keeps us on our toes. It also gives scouts something to do (both detect and evade)

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#51 - 2012-09-15 14:21:10 UTC
Kitt JT wrote:
I'm confused.

AFK cloakers pose no threat. They gather no intel. They kill no ships. I can assure you, you have never been killed by an AFK cloaker. He's AFK.



Someone is trolling...... Or you are a newb and you don't know what the problem is.
Ghost of Truth
Mad Dawg Industries
#52 - 2012-09-15 14:22:09 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
It's so fun to read the texts of people who wants to keep AFK claoking in the game.
From between the lines you can read the same thing all over.

"I claoky pvp, please do not make my cloaky pvp any harder so I do not need to think when I pvp, cause I like my pvp to be easy and then I can show off my easy kills on killboards to my pvp buddies and we can compare the size of our "guns"" oh wait "kills"


It's fun to read posts by absolute imbeciles. AFK cloaking is not pvp. It is not anything. It is an impossibility for an afk cloaker to do anything to anyone.

Additionally, what makes cloaky pvp easy? What on earth makes you think they instantly win any engagement? Are you incapable of fighting back? Do you not have an alliance backing you up? If you don't then you have no right to the rewards of nullsec anyway. You have to earn that stuff, son, and you earn it through dealing with these threats and maybe - gasp - fighting back.



I am flying Cloakies. You cant fight back unless the cloaker want to fight.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#53 - 2012-09-15 15:32:35 UTC
Ghost of Truth wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
It's so fun to read the texts of people who wants to keep AFK claoking in the game.
From between the lines you can read the same thing all over.

"I claoky pvp, please do not make my cloaky pvp any harder so I do not need to think when I pvp, cause I like my pvp to be easy and then I can show off my easy kills on killboards to my pvp buddies and we can compare the size of our "guns"" oh wait "kills"


It's fun to read posts by absolute imbeciles. AFK cloaking is not pvp. It is not anything. It is an impossibility for an afk cloaker to do anything to anyone.

Additionally, what makes cloaky pvp easy? What on earth makes you think they instantly win any engagement? Are you incapable of fighting back? Do you not have an alliance backing you up? If you don't then you have no right to the rewards of nullsec anyway. You have to earn that stuff, son, and you earn it through dealing with these threats and maybe - gasp - fighting back.



I am flying Cloakies. You cant fight back unless the cloaker want to fight.

I fly cloaked ships. Cloaked vessels have significant defense and offense penalties in exchange for their stealth ability.

Unless they decloak and engage, they cannot hurt anyone. An actual AFK pilot cannot decloak intentionally, or perform any action requiring client initiative.

What they do have, is an unreliable psychological impact on many players.
Many players become aware of suspected cloaked pilots due to local. (They don't need to be cloaked in reality, just difficult to find with probes if not by assumption alone)
These same pilots then go into paranoid overdrive, assuming the cloaked pilot is watching them, has a cyno equipped and ready, and a significant fleet on standby.

Even if all these concerns were real, it is still possible to counter such tactics with proper teamwork.

Use a bait ship with players ready to jump on the target. Make the bait ship capable of the original mission so you are not losing everything to the threat that may never appear. So your mining or ratting slows down, you are now prepared to either fight a real threat, or make a fake one leave in frustration.

You only lose if you don't try. This is PvP, null sec and low sec work better for groups. If you move or just don't undock, you gave the invisible man power over you.

Go own that cloaked devil, don't forfeit!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#54 - 2012-09-15 23:19:59 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:




I fly cloaked ships. Cloaked vessels have significant defense and offense penalties in exchange for their stealth ability.

Unless they decloak and engage, they cannot hurt anyone. An actual AFK pilot cannot decloak intentionally, or perform any action requiring client initiative.

What they do have, is an unreliable psychological impact on many players.
Many players become aware of suspected cloaked pilots due to local. (They don't need to be cloaked in reality, just difficult to find with probes if not by assumption alone)
These same pilots then go into paranoid overdrive, assuming the cloaked pilot is watching them, has a cyno equipped and ready, and a significant fleet on standby.

Even if all these concerns were real, it is still possible to counter such tactics with proper teamwork.

Use a bait ship with players ready to jump on the target. Make the bait ship capable of the original mission so you are not losing everything to the threat that may never appear. So your mining or ratting slows down, you are now prepared to either fight a real threat, or make a fake one leave in frustration.

You only lose if you don't try. This is PvP, null sec and low sec work better for groups. If you move or just don't undock, you gave the invisible man power over you.

Go own that cloaked devil, don't forfeit!


Don't much mind the cloakies that come looking for a fight (tho falcons are frustrating). its the cloakies that refuse to fight that i wish i could find.

Ratters who safe up should be locatable, even if by some long winded method. and cloaky gangs that refuse to engage till its 2v1 in their favour should also be unable to hide forever.

no hiding forever!

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Glitch Online
License To Steal
#55 - 2012-09-15 23:35:01 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

...
Use a bait ship with players ready to jump on the target. Make the bait ship capable of the original mission so you are not losing everything to the threat that may never appear. So your mining or ratting slows down, you are now prepared to either fight a real threat, or make a fake one leave in frustration.
...


So assume i did get a group of friends, and we did set up a bait ship, and several hours later nothing has happened yet. Then what? Keep waiting? Keep others waiting?

My idea would remove AFK cloaking, but if you are not afk, and the NPC agents de-cloacks you, you will have plenty of time to warp off and re-cloack.
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#56 - 2012-09-16 00:18:10 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:


It's fun to read posts by absolute imbeciles. AFK cloaking is not pvp. It is not anything. It is an impossibility for an afk cloaker to do anything to anyone.

Additionally, what makes cloaky pvp easy? What on earth makes you think they instantly win any engagement? Are you incapable of fighting back? Do you not have an alliance backing you up? If you don't then you have no right to the rewards of nullsec anyway. You have to earn that stuff, son, and you earn it through dealing with these threats and maybe - gasp - fighting back.


cloaky pvp is easier cause u cant get probed down. it carries less risk in general and allows u to better choose which fights u take part in and which ones u avoid. u also get bathroom breaks that non-cloakers dont lol

i'm not saying thats a bad thing, but i'd like to see any cloaked ship that stays in one place for long enough be tracked and eliminated. it just keeps us on our toes. It also gives scouts something to do (both detect and evade)




still no real answer for the REAL question... how does it ruin the gameplay??

another thing is; why do you think(and accept) the "cloaky" is a fighter? it could be a indy/miner, so how could you(or your uberduper agent that you suggest) be sure???

it is a dead end..


i bet you wont find an "reasonable" answer again..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
ninjaholic
Tactical Feed.
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2012-09-16 01:14:17 UTC
Will the anti-AFK-cloaker threads ever end?

Support Eve's own built-in Battle-Recorder!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#58 - 2012-09-16 05:47:09 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Don't much mind the cloakies that come looking for a fight (tho falcons are frustrating). its the cloakies that refuse to fight that i wish i could find.

Ratters who safe up should be locatable, even if by some long winded method. and cloaky gangs that refuse to engage till its 2v1 in their favour should also be unable to hide forever.

no hiding forever!

You have my sympathy for your frustration, no sarcasm here.

But you are either in null sec, or you may as well be in this case.
If your allied corps were unable to mount an effective enough perimeter with gate camps and defenses, then you are left to fall back on patrols and secondary means like I described.

The cloaked pilot cannot fight you while cloaked. He either has to fight you directly, or cyno in buddies while he is not cloaked.

The fact is, you know he is in your system, your defenses failed to keep him out, and there are no rules saying he has to politely introduce himself so you can take turns shooting. He has the option of using hit and run gorilla tactics, or even psych warfare.
If that means cloaking up and keeping people in fear of what may happen, it is a weapon just the same.

It is a weapon in your own mind.

I am pointing out here you can fight him. Quit forfeiting your rights to kick his tail out without even trying.

CALL HIS BLUFF. Prep your hit squad, and make him sweat over whether you set a trap for him.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#59 - 2012-09-16 05:51:25 UTC
Glitch Online wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

...
Use a bait ship with players ready to jump on the target. Make the bait ship capable of the original mission so you are not losing everything to the threat that may never appear. So your mining or ratting slows down, you are now prepared to either fight a real threat, or make a fake one leave in frustration.
...


So assume i did get a group of friends, and we did set up a bait ship, and several hours later nothing has happened yet. Then what? Keep waiting? Keep others waiting?

My idea would remove AFK cloaking, but if you are not afk, and the NPC agents de-cloacks you, you will have plenty of time to warp off and re-cloack.

It's Null sec. Start thinking about mutual destruction. Now start thinking about how frustrated he is, afraid to attack you because you may have this trap.

And he sees you mining, or ratting. Sure, maybe a bit slower than you might if he was gone, but YOU are rubbing his face in the fact he did NOT paralyze you.
You turned around and set a dinner table, and sent him an invitation to be the main course.

So what if you needed a tank or allies in null sec? If you wanted to play without risk of this you would not be in null sec. Now, make him your frustrated plaything, as all he is able to do is watch helplessly.

Tell me who is winning now. YOU.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#60 - 2012-09-16 09:29:24 UTC
A solution to AFK cloaking assumes that a problem actually exists.

If somebody cloaking in your system is AFK, then no problem at all. Nobody who is AFK can hurt you.

If that person is not AFK, then no problem, they're not AFK cloaking.

Cloaky ships are inherently frail, easily killed by a battlecruiser. One simple solution (there are many more, this is just one example) is ratting (assuming that's what you're trying to do) in anomalies with friends, all in PvP fit Drakes (ie Point, Invuls, and buffer). Five of those would smash any bomber or recon in one or two volleys while tanking any damage and spreading any ewar.

Who would have ever thought that a really good solution to a concern in an MMO would be to play with other players?