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Skill Discussions

 
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we need more gunnery and missile skills
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irishFour
Almost Dangerous
#101 - 2012-09-13 01:49:09 UTC
wow, this thread really got high-jacked.

how about more gunnery skills. I like this idea, and i still have lots to train.

The idea of being a true specialist over being a well rounded jack of all trades master of none is appealing to me. Giving my time invested in the game as an advantage over noobs, inst that what eve is all about, what makes this different from WOW.

There should be some lines drawn in the sand, for instance, a battleship should never go out and rock 3k dps, and land perfect hits every time, never have to reload, and fire every second. But allowing people to inch closer and closer to perfection with a greater and greater, ever growing period of time to get there, seems to be a balance between investment and reward.

I like to have my cake and eat it too
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#102 - 2012-09-13 03:58:26 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
I told you already plenty of times and it feels like i'm talking to a wall.....I am not training my 2 alts on this account with the exact same skills this one has, as it's a total waste of time.


As for the ship example, you also disregard the time it takes to build and that there's no shortcuts to speed it up...P


And that's fine. That's your choice. But choosing to ignore half (single character) or 5/6th (account wide) of the available training goals in the game and then complaining that there aren't any training goals left is ridiculous.

That's true. It takes 6 months for the first one to come off the line. The second one would come off the line an hour or two later. Build time isn't a good balancing factor either, since there's no reason not to run parallel lines.




It's not half as single char as i told you, i have practically all skills in game plugged in, but you just keep going you own way...Blink


With 120 000 capital ship parts to build for each one, wich is the amount needed to build 20 titans( just to put it into perspective), and with a titan BPO costing 65 billion, and this super ship, applying the 20x rule( for argument sake), end up costing 1.2 trillion for the ship BPO alone, and needing 1.4 trillion isk worth of minerals( 20x rule again), and you sure they'll be popping out of the oven every few hours, cause i'm not.


Main point is that there will be no where near as many of these in 7 years from now, as there are titans that were built in the last 7 years.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#103 - 2012-09-13 04:10:54 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
I was already in 4 of them over the years, and quite frankly, i don't need the hassle with the politics, backroom deals, back stabbing and overall paranoia involved with that aspect.....Besides, real life and the job wouldn't allow me enough time to supervise said aliance's evolution( or demise...P)


Then pick another challenge. Master a ship in combat. Master the art of market manipulation.

Adding a skill to your skill queue is not a challenge.


By the way, if you're not in an Alliance and only have one character, how would you build (let alone use) one of these new Super-Titans you're proposing?




Did both already.....My last challenge was taking an orca industrial, pack it to the brim with a med POS, fuel, defences and a command ship and mining ship, as well as a mobile intensive refinery, and scan a sleeper wormhole and i set up shop in sleeper space and stayed there for about 40 days, mining rares and killing sleeper cruisers while running PI operations on the planets located there.


Had a visit from guys that were shooting my POS( they were from get off my lawn aliance), until i set the guns to maximum defence where they shoot first and ask questions later, and the guns blew 2 of them away and the rest pissed off back thru the wormhole they came from.....Was quite fun.


I enjoyed the peace and quiet for those 40 days and made more than enough to offset the cost of everything, even though the only exit wormhole i found that day led to low sec empire, but i made it to high sec in one piece...


My point.....I enjoy difficult objectives that i pull off on my own that most wouldn't do it and they stick with staying in high sec empire.....It was the reason why i moved to 0.0 space with less than 6 months into the game, as the money earning potential was pathetic in high sec, and even in 0.0 wasn't that high compared to today, as not even NPC BS's existed back then, only 50K cruisers so one was lucky to make 5 million isk a day in 0.0 back then...
Pipa Porto
#104 - 2012-09-13 05:13:27 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
It's not half as single char as i told you, i have practically all skills in game plugged in, but you just keep going you own way...Blink


With 120 000 capital ship parts to build for each one, wich is the amount needed to build 20 titans( just to put it into perspective), and with a titan BPO costing 65 billion, and this super ship, applying the 20x rule( for argument sake), end up costing 1.2 trillion for the ship BPO alone, and needing 1.4 trillion isk worth of minerals( 20x rule again), and you sure they'll be popping out of the oven every few hours, cause i'm not.


Main point is that there will be no where near as many of these in 7 years from now, as there are titans that were built in the last 7 years.


Plugging in Skills != Training them. If you have more than half of the 400+m SP available to train trained, you still have 8+ years of training to go before you run out.

If they're useful enough to be worth a Trillion ISK, you bet your boots people will be running parallel lines of them. If they're not, they'll have the same ignomious fate as the Revenant... unused.

So? Build Cost is never a valid balancing factor. CCP said the exact same thing about the Titans when they were introduced (that their high costs would limit their availability and thus balance their power) and look how wrong they were.

And again, how would the Super-Titan you're proposing affect you in any way? You, as you said, aren't in an alliance (so you couldn't build it or use it) and aren't willing to run a second account (so you cant effectively move it) and aren't willing to trap yourself in a ship (so you wouldn't even be willing to fly it).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#105 - 2012-09-13 05:14:48 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
My point.....I enjoy difficult objectives that i pull off on my own that most wouldn't do it and they stick with staying in high sec empire.....It was the reason why i moved to 0.0 space with less than 6 months into the game, as the money earning potential was pathetic in high sec, and even in 0.0 wasn't that high compared to today, as not even NPC BS's existed back then, only 50K cruisers so one was lucky to make 5 million isk a day in 0.0 back then...


So then why are you asking for CCP to give you a pathetically easy task to achieve?

Right Click > Inject Skill is not the stuff Sagas are sung about.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#106 - 2012-09-13 05:34:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Plugging in Skills != Training them. If you have more than half of the 400+m SP available to train trained, you still have 8+ years of training to go before you run out.

If they're useful enough to be worth a Trillion ISK, you bet your boots people will be running parallel lines of them. If they're not, they'll have the same ignomious fate as the Revenant... unused.

So? Build Cost is never a valid balancing factor. CCP said the exact same thing about the Titans when they were introduced (that their high costs would limit their availability and thus balance their power) and look how wrong they were.

And again, how would the Super-Titan you're proposing affect you in any way? You, as you said, aren't in an alliance (so you couldn't build it or use it) and aren't willing to run a second account (so you cant effectively move it) and aren't willing to trap yourself in a ship (so you wouldn't even be willing to fly it).



Even if as a last resort, i do plug in the remaining skills you can bet i'll never train them to level 5....That's 1.


Not just a trillion isk, but more like 2.5 triilion between the BPO and the minerals alone, and the only thing you could run in parallel would be the capital ship parts construction portion, using pretty much every single outpost( prefferably amarr outposts since they have that mineral reduction bonus), and i wouldn't want to even imagine the fleet of freighters needed to carry 120 000 of those parts(1200 + charon freighter trips) to a single POS for the final 6 month construction time....You seem to seriously underestimate the logistics for such a large build.


And i said earlier, it has nothing to do with balancing at all, but everything to do with doing something truly hard to accomplish and boasting about it on the forums.....Sort of like what Cyvok did when he presented a video of the first titan in game, and no one knew about it before that video was released, not even corp mates or aliance mates( he was the leader of ASCN)....Several months had passed since titans were introduced and no one built one right off the bat


What's happening with the revenant is the same as those first titans.....who ever builds one has a giant bullseye painted on it and for at least the first 2 years since titans were released, we had reports on titan kills popping up routinely on the aliance forums....Today, no one gives a crap about a titan kill because they're easy to replace, primarily because there's a lot more isk coming into the game, and a good portion of that is thru plex sales, with the full consent of CCP.....In short, your wallet in real life gets you the toys you want in game.


If such a ship existed, it might give me a reason to get back into an aliance, even with all the drawbacks they have wich i already mentioned in an earlier post about politics and so forth, but as of right now, i got no reason to do it and many have left 0.0 when you can make a lot of isk in high sec between missions and incursions and market trading faction/ officer modules....I got isk to spend basically and nothing to spend it on....
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#107 - 2012-09-13 05:36:57 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
My point.....I enjoy difficult objectives that i pull off on my own that most wouldn't do it and they stick with staying in high sec empire.....It was the reason why i moved to 0.0 space with less than 6 months into the game, as the money earning potential was pathetic in high sec, and even in 0.0 wasn't that high compared to today, as not even NPC BS's existed back then, only 50K cruisers so one was lucky to make 5 million isk a day in 0.0 back then...


So then why are you asking for CCP to give you a pathetically easy task to achieve?

Right Click > Inject Skill is not the stuff Sagas are sung about.



I think it shows you never tried to build either a super carrier or a titan on your own, never mind something that requires 20x more resources......Blink
Pipa Porto
#108 - 2012-09-13 07:14:32 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
Even if as a last resort, i do plug in the remaining skills you can bet i'll never train them to level 5....That's 1.


Is CCP forcing you not to train those skills? Nope. It is your choice not to train them. You can't complain that there's nothing left to train while saying "I am unwilling to train half the skills in the game."

Quote:
Not just a trillion isk, but more like 2.5 triilion between the BPO and the minerals alone, and the only thing you could run in parallel would be the capital ship parts construction portion, using pretty much every single outpost( prefferably amarr outposts since they have that mineral reduction bonus), and i wouldn't want to even imagine the fleet of freighters needed to carry 120 000 of those parts(1200 + charon freighter trips) to a single POS for the final 6 month construction time....You seem to seriously underestimate the logistics for such a large build.


And i said earlier, it has nothing to do with balancing at all, but everything to do with doing something truly hard to accomplish and boasting about it on the forums.....Sort of like what Cyvok did when he presented a video of the first titan in game, and no one knew about it before that video was released, not even corp mates or aliance mates( he was the leader of ASCN)....Several months had passed since titans were introduced and no one built one right off the bat


What's happening with the revenant is the same as those first titans.....who ever builds one has a giant bullseye painted on it and for at least the first 2 years since titans were released, we had reports on titan kills popping up routinely on the aliance forums....Today, no one gives a crap about a titan kill because they're easy to replace, primarily because there's a lot more isk coming into the game, and a good portion of that is thru plex sales, with the full consent of CCP.....In short, your wallet in real life gets you the toys you want in game.


If such a ship existed, it might give me a reason to get back into an aliance, even with all the drawbacks they have wich i already mentioned in an earlier post about politics and so forth, but as of right now, i got no reason to do it and many have left 0.0 when you can make a lot of isk in high sec between missions and incursions and market trading faction/ officer modules....I got isk to spend basically and nothing to spend it on....


The same thing will happen to your new super-titan after a few years.

Cost is not a valid balancing factor. No matter how much you say that you're not trying to create a super-powered ship balanced by it's cost, that's what you're proposing.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#109 - 2012-09-13 07:16:57 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
My point.....I enjoy difficult objectives that i pull off on my own that most wouldn't do it and they stick with staying in high sec empire.....It was the reason why i moved to 0.0 space with less than 6 months into the game, as the money earning potential was pathetic in high sec, and even in 0.0 wasn't that high compared to today, as not even NPC BS's existed back then, only 50K cruisers so one was lucky to make 5 million isk a day in 0.0 back then...


So then why are you asking for CCP to give you a pathetically easy task to achieve?

Right Click > Inject Skill is not the stuff Sagas are sung about.



I think it shows you never tried to build either a super carrier or a titan on your own, never mind something that requires 20x more resources......Blink


A titan takes some 3 JF trips to build. 60 JF trips is the work of a week or so.

Anyway, this is a discussion of Skills (especially since you earlier pointed out that you're uninterested in flying supercaps because of your RP limitation of one character only), so do tell me more about the challenge of injecting a skill.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#110 - 2012-09-13 15:25:01 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


The same thing will happen to your new super-titan after a few years.

Cost is not a valid balancing factor. No matter how much you say that you're not trying to create a super-powered ship balanced by it's cost, that's what you're proposing.




Not having the same amount in the same 7 years since titans were released was my point( not even close to it really), given they need 20x the resources.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#111 - 2012-09-13 15:32:33 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Pipa Porto wrote:


A titan takes some 3 JF trips to build. 60 JF trips is the work of a week or so.

Anyway, this is a discussion of Skills (especially since you earlier pointed out that you're uninterested in flying supercaps because of your RP limitation of one character only), so do tell me more about the challenge of injecting a skill.




It's not just the JF trips to consider, it's then melting the guns, then building 120 000 capital ship parts, then hauling all of that to a single POS, then the 6 month build time for final assembly of the ship, and defending the area from hostiles the whole time, cause if someone gets wind that this thing is being built, you can bet they'll send the entire fleet to wipe it out before it's completed.


Then there's the question that the BPO itself comes with a 10% wastage factor, so if reducing production costs is part of the plan, then it needs to be researched and the amount of time needed to get it to ME 2~3 would be enourmous....Way more than a titan research time.



So it's not just the amount of jump freighter trips needed....That is just the start of the process, and no where near the end of it.


As far as the challenge of injecting a skill, do keep in mind i had to make 20 billion isk for the 4 titan skill books on my own, and in high sec space, using no plex sales that involve real world money...
Pipa Porto
#112 - 2012-09-13 17:45:04 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
As far as the challenge of injecting a skill, do keep in mind i had to make 20 billion isk for the 4 titan skill books on my own, and in high sec space, using no plex sales that involve real world money...


That's your choice. Your silly RP self imposed limitations don't have any bearing on game balance.

Since you seem to have missed this:

Pipa Porto wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
Even if as a last resort, i do plug in the remaining skills you can bet i'll never train them to level 5....That's 1.


Is CCP forcing you not to train those skills? Nope. It is your choice not to train them. You can't complain that there's nothing left to train while saying "I am unwilling to train half the skills in the game."

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Larloch TheAncient
Freindly Mining Corporation
#113 - 2012-09-13 19:04:23 UTC
How about 1 Specilization skill per character.

Something like the Omega sets on implants.



lvl 1 - 5 (gunner, engineering, missles ...etc)


Gives 5% Bonus to the total bonus of all skills in this category. Per skill level.


Therefore the 25% bonus of Medium Hybrid V (if you spec for gunnery)

Would become 30%

10% for gunnery 5 would become 12%


etc/etc on all the skills in your chosen "specialization path"



Make the skill rank 20 or something.
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#114 - 2012-09-13 20:50:48 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


That's your choice. Your silly RP self imposed limitations don't have any bearing on game balance.

Since you seem to have missed this:

Pipa Porto wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
Even if as a last resort, i do plug in the remaining skills you can bet i'll never train them to level 5....That's 1.


Is CCP forcing you not to train those skills? Nope. It is your choice not to train them. You can't complain that there's nothing left to train while saying "I am unwilling to train half the skills in the game."




Again, you were resuming the effort to right click + inject skills as being nothing special and not worthy of any praise, so it's you that seems to simplify things in an extreme and unrealistic manner, and as much as it may **** you off, i am proud of pulling that off under those constraints, even if self imposed.



And again, you resume it to me only having half the SP trained in the game( fair enough), and that i still have the other half left to train, wich the vast majority i have no interest in and couldn't make use of all those skills at the same time, using a single char, even if i was the best multitasker on the planet, wich i've repeated this several times and you just keep on ignoring it over and over again.


My limit stops at around 260 million sp if i did my math right in terms of skills i want to see maxed out, even though most aren't a priority, but just something that can still be usefull and nice to have for a given scenario, even if rarely used.....
Pipa Porto
#115 - 2012-09-13 20:57:49 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
Again, you were resuming the effort to right click + inject skills as being nothing special and not worthy of any praise, so it's you that seems to simplify things in an extreme and unrealistic manner, and as much as it may **** you off, i am proud of pulling that off under those constraints, even if self imposed.



And again, you resume it to me only having half the SP trained in the game( fair enough), and that i still have the other half left to train, wich the vast majority i have no interest in and couldn't make use of all those skills at the same time, using a single char, even if i was the best multitasker on the planet, wich i've repeated this several times and you just keep on ignoring it over and over again.


My limit stops at around 260 million sp if i did my math right in terms of skills i want to see maxed out, even though most aren't a priority, but just something that can still be usefull and nice to have for a given scenario, even if rarely used.....



It is entirely your choice to artificially limit yourself to training one character past the point where you don't feel the extra SP provides you with sufficient incentive to train. You have 2 other character slots that you're leaving unused.

"I don't want to train half of the skills available and I don't want to use 2/3rds of the character slots available" is not a good argument for your claim that there aren't enough skills in the game.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#116 - 2012-09-13 21:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Pipa Porto wrote:



It is entirely your choice to artificially limit yourself to training one character past the point where you don't feel the extra SP provides you with sufficient incentive to train. You have 2 other character slots that you're leaving unused.

"I don't want to train half of the skills available and I don't want to use 2/3rds of the character slots available" is not a good argument for your claim that there aren't enough skills in the game.




And i told you many times training the other 2 chars with the same skills this one already has is beyond stupid, and i even told you in another post, i'll never max out the skills i have no interest in, so this basically means that i will ultimately have 230~240 skills at lvl 5 and the rest of the crap i have no interest in left at lvl 4.....That's the 260 million sp mark i spoke of in my last post( give or take a few million sp)
Pipa Porto
#117 - 2012-09-13 22:53:10 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
And i told you many times training the other 2 chars with the same skills this one already has is beyond stupid, and i even told you in another post, i'll never max out the skills i have no interest in, so this basically means that i will ultimately have 230~240 skills at lvl 5 and the rest of the crap i have no interest in left at lvl 4.....That's the 260 million sp mark i spoke of in my last post( give or take a few million sp)


And you've still not answered how that is anything other than your choice to place artificial and arbitrary limitations on your training schedule.

Nor have you shown how "I don't want to train half of the skills available and I don't want to use 2/3rds of the character slots available" is a good argument to support your claim that there aren't enough skills.

By the way, that 260m SP mark is 2-3 years away assuming you're at 200.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#118 - 2012-09-14 00:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Pipa Porto wrote:


And you've still not answered how that is anything other than your choice to place artificial and arbitrary limitations on your training schedule.

Nor have you shown how "I don't want to train half of the skills available and I don't want to use 2/3rds of the character slots available" is a good argument to support your claim that there aren't enough skills.

By the way, that 260m SP mark is 2-3 years away assuming you're at 200.




I think i have since i told you way back(and several times now), that i'm only interested in certain skills and not all of them, and even told you CCP had at one point a specialisation agenda and not wanting players to train everything, wich i believe you ignored several times already.


Again, the extra chars are on the same account, and can only log in one at a time, so maxing all 3 out is beyond stupid but i've said this so many times i lost count....it's like it goes in one ear and flies out the other with you.


Indeed it is just 3 years away, as i train at 24 million sp a year, wich is the maximum that the game allows within the current game mechanics, but i've got 9+ years in the game already, so what is your point?
Pipa Porto
#119 - 2012-09-14 00:17:45 UTC
digitalwanderer wrote:
I think i have since i told you way back(and several times now), that i'm only interested in certain skills and not all of them, and even told you CCP had at one point a specialisation agenda and not wanting players to train everything, wich i believe you ignored several times already.


Again, the extra chars are on the same account, and can only log in one at a time, so maxing all 3 out is beyond stupid but i've said this so many times i lost count....it's like it goes in one ear and flies out the other with you.


Indeed it is just 3 years away, as i train at 24 million sp a year, wich is the maximum that the game allows within the current game mechanics, but i've got 9+ years in the game already, so what is your point?



You have not at any point explained how it is anything but your choice to refuse to train half the available SP per character and 5/6th of the available SP per account.

The extra characters on your account are there specifically so you can create specialist characters. You're refusing to do so... so what's this about you wanting to specialize in things?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
digitalwanderer
DW inc
#120 - 2012-09-14 00:22:01 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:



You have not at any point explained how it is anything but your choice to refuse to train half the available SP per character and 5/6th of the available SP per account.

The extra characters on your account are there specifically so you can create specialist characters. You're refusing to do so... so what's this about you wanting to specialize in things?




I think i just told you even CCP wanted everyone to specialise in something.....Granted this was several years ago and quite likely before you started playing the game, but i'm telling you now it was fact, and others who've played as long as i have can confirm it if you think i'm B'Sing you...



Now your second paragraph is confusing since i told you like 10 times already....this char has almost aall the skills in the game, so what would the other 2 chars specialise in that this one can't do already?