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[Winter] EW Cruisers

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2012-09-13 22:20:32 UTC
Word on the street is that the Cane and (Drake or HML) will be seeing some downward adjustments. I wouldn't count these cruisers out just yet.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sedoris
Every Day Low Prices
#62 - 2012-09-13 22:20:59 UTC
So now the arbitrator is going to have a larger TD bonus than the curse?
Aaron Greil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-09-13 22:22:15 UTC
The biggest issue I see is that blackbirds (and family) are already the trump card in unequal small scale engagements. If my enemy has five cruisers and my team has two or three, the one with the most jamming survives. The falcon and rook are really the ships that force me to break my engagement as soon as they enter the field (small gangs, remember). Every other EWAR platform is a pain, but not a gamechanger. The last thing we need is another ECM platform to screw over small gang fights. I'm all for buffing the cruiser line up, but it seems if the blackbird is going to get many of its basic stats increased, ECM needs nerfbat so small gangs can still exist. This is just my experience, but imo, ECM need attention before a more powerful blackbird is released.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#64 - 2012-09-13 22:23:34 UTC
Sedoris wrote:
So now the arbitrator is going to have a larger TD bonus than the curse?


Seems like they're increasing all the TD/Damp bonuses. It'll get fixed in time.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#65 - 2012-09-13 22:24:22 UTC
Aaron Greil wrote:
The biggest issue I see is that blackbirds (and family) are already the trump card in unequal small scale engagements. If my enemy has five cruisers and my team has two or three, the one with the most jamming survives. The falcon and rook are really the ships that force me to break my engagement as soon as they enter the field (small gangs, remember). Every other EWAR platform is a pain, but not a gamechanger. The last thing we need is another ECM platform to screw over small gang fights. I'm all for buffing the cruiser line up, but it seems if the blackbird is going to get many of its basic stats increased, ECM needs nerfbat so small gangs can still exist. This is just my experience, but imo, ECM need attention before a more powerful blackbird is released.


You should look into ECCM implants. Seriously. Low grade if you fly frigates frequently or high grade for cruiser and above. They're cheap and very effective.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Karah Serrigan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-09-13 22:26:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You really need to either adjust damps to have a bit more inherent usefulness or significantly increase that bonus (if you want to avoid the old situation of “damps on everything”).

I haven't done the all the maths for where it needs to be but really, what you should be aiming at is that with a reasonable fit and without any special bonuses (command ships etc.), and after stacking penalties, a Celestis that concentrates all of its disruption on a single ships should do pretty much the same thing as the equivalent Blackbird would do the the same ship… which would pretty much entail damping any normal ship down to, oh, 2km lock range or so.

…so keep bumping those bonuses up, because you're not there yet.


I'd rather have a Blackbird that concentrates all its jammers on one ship be closer in power to the Celestis than the other way around, however yeah there is more that needs to be done with damps.

Then why do you give it one more Signal distortion amplifier, ramping up its possible jam strength from 9.4 to 9.9 pre rigs? Unless you change the ECM mechanics at the same time...but iirc you said on the podcast that its not going to happen this expansion yet?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-09-13 22:28:57 UTC
Sedoris wrote:
So now the arbitrator is going to have a larger TD bonus than the curse?

Maybe we need CCP Fozzie to put a notice in the OP that all T1 ships will be redone first, then T2 will be adjusted if needed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#68 - 2012-09-13 22:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
having flown a 100km blackbird before it does seem the bonus to range is unnecessary maybe a cap bonus might be more balanced after all the falcon and rook struggle to get too 100km range its not needed same as scorp i feel ecm on bs should be short range really bs is meant to be about tank brawling but i digress.
I am also concerned about minmatar ships getting so much drone attention why should they they don't have drone boats
the bellicose is already going to be lethal to frigs not that meds are great against frigs but still why give it the same amount as the gallente cruiser this makes no sense for hit and run attacks having med drones makes no sense plus you would think for minnie ships that are supposed to be light on structure surely a drone bay would eat into hull space i.e. tank.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#69 - 2012-09-13 22:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Liang Nuren wrote:
Word on the street is that the Cane and (Drake or HML) will be seeing some downward adjustments. I wouldn't count these cruisers out just yet.

-Liang



something tells me the cane will loose those two utility high slots...

and heavy missiles will get thier range reduced...

and for the myrm i hope it looses the repping bonus gets a sentry drone damage bonus and looses a high slot for a low slot or two... plus increased drone bay and up the activation amount to 4 sentries so thats 100 mb

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#70 - 2012-09-13 22:39:50 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Word on the street is that the Cane and (Drake or HML) will be seeing some downward adjustments. I wouldn't count these cruisers out just yet.

-Liang



something tells me the cane will loose those two utility high slots...

and heavy missiles will get thier range reduced...


I'm betting on a cane fitting and speed reduction and a HML range nerf.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#71 - 2012-09-13 22:39:52 UTC
The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Hoarr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-09-13 22:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Hoarr
MeBiatch wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Word on the street is that the Cane and (Drake or HML) will be seeing some downward adjustments. I wouldn't count these cruisers out just yet.

-Liang



something tells me the cane will loose those two utility high slots...

and heavy missiles will get thier range reduced...

and for the myrm i hope it looses the repping bonus gets a sentry drone damage bonus and looses a high slot for a low slot or two... plus increased drone bay and up the activation amount to 4 sentries so thats 100 mb


That would completely destroy the shield cane. If it lost its utility highs you would get shredded by frigates
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#73 - 2012-09-13 22:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: LtCol Laurentius
Harvey James wrote:
The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.


The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but nothing major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#74 - 2012-09-13 22:51:30 UTC
can we stay off the cane/bc topic please i think its been exhausted and this is about disruption cruisers,

Talking about that the Arbitrator is rather slow and clunky especially considering it will be plated hopefully you gave it enough pg to use the t2 1600 's now there useful again its needs a lot more speed/agility and less mass seriously what happened to more mobility isn't that supposed to be the point of cruisers over bc's?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#75 - 2012-09-13 22:53:11 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.


The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but noting major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.


Indeed but T2 is supposed to be better at its chosen specialization so it makes no sense to keep allowing the blackbird to be BETTER than T2 ecm ships at ecm range

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-09-13 22:55:02 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.


The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but noting major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.

It has also been mentioned that a change will occur to ECM, the ship was probably designed with that in mind.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
LtCol Laurentius
The Imperial Sardaukar
#77 - 2012-09-13 22:58:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.


The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but noting major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.


Indeed but T2 is supposed to be better at its chosen specialization so it makes no sense to keep allowing the blackbird to be BETTER than T2 ecm ships at ecm range


It has made a lot of sense for years and it still does. The only way to survive in a BB is range. It doesnt have the resilience, agility, speed or cloaking ability to survive without range, because it will ALWAYS be primaried.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#78 - 2012-09-13 23:03:30 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
The rook and falcon don't get range bonus and have 1 less rig to augment range on the ecm mods yet you want the T1 ecm ship to have better range this seems odd.
Of course this means the blackbird will need more mobility if its jamming at the range of rooks and falcons so 60km op ish considering the pilots skills will be lv4's for ecm range.


The BBs bonuses are unchanged from the previous iteration. It has been a better ranged ECM ship than the Rook/Falcon for years. The extra lowslot is a slight buff, but noting major. Its max jamstrenght will still be below 10 points, which is significantly less than the recons.


Indeed but T2 is supposed to be better at its chosen specialization so it makes no sense to keep allowing the blackbird to be BETTER than T2 ecm ships at ecm range


It has made a lot of sense for years and it still does. The only way to survive in a BB is range. It doesnt have the resilience, agility, speed or cloaking ability to survive without range, because it will ALWAYS be primaried.


Yes but its T1 it should be more killable and i have already said it needs a buff to its mobility/tank to compensate but bottom line is T1 logi don't have better range than the T2 despite its ridiculous 1000% bonus its meant to be worse it shouldnt have a better bonus than rook or falcon i mean they both have same issue then if you're locked you cant cloak and you have crap tank and mobility but much higher ecm to compensate but its 200mil plus ship so it should a bb is cheap as hell why should it be immune to being killed by its excessive range bonus?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#79 - 2012-09-13 23:05:16 UTC
LtCol Laurentius wrote:
It has made a lot of sense for years and it still does. The only way to survive in a BB is range. It doesnt have the resilience, agility, speed or cloaking ability to survive without range, because it will ALWAYS be primaried.
Yeah but during those years it didn't have an extra low for another SDA, plus more lock range. No they are not "huge" boosts, but any additional bit of completely shutting another player out of a fight is too much.

One can only hope that the ECM changes will compensate.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#80 - 2012-09-13 23:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Also the tier 3 bc's are faster than most of these cruisers i mean wtf!!!!! there cruisers there meant to be mobile this is why people use bc's not cruisers cruisers are massively underpowered in many ways its speed/mobility is meant to be the redeeming feature over bc's better tank better dps better....
This is just another nail in the coffin of cruisers i hope you do better with the attack cruisers you need too Sad

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using