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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2012-09-05 02:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Andy Landen wrote:
PS .. Why fly a logistics T1 frigate?

You haven't flown frigates or cruisers much in combat have you?

If a t1 logistics frigate cost as much as a t1 logistics cruiser, it would still get flown more. It's partly the cost that will make a t1 logistics frigate popular, but more than anything its the size. The cruiser has MUCH lower speed and agility, and is a giant easy target for larger craft to shoot. Frigate gangs can fight other frigate gangs, but they mostly try to go up against larger targets. They're also useful for moving fast so that intelligence channels don't have time to track them very accurately and they can catch people unaware. Cruisers move, align, and warp slower. Also the medium modules have a longer cycle time, so the small modules are very nice to have. But that faster cycling advantage isn't worth much with a cruiser's sluggishness and slow targeting, so a logi frigate using small logi modules will be great to have.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Doddy
Excidium.
#402 - 2012-09-06 09:07:15 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
I appreciate that they are slow and fragile but

1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.

2) Logi dont get +50% rep power, these do.

3) For PvE, the tank and speed on these is meaningless

4) For camping a plex, you can have this orbit 30km away while your main sits on the warpin


Well if deadspace reps actually have a use the price will go up a bit. And they are a really flimsy hull so they are going to die alot (and thus deadspace reps actually get destroyed unlike now).

I think people are overestimating the rep power these things will put out anyway. Really the bad situation will be for people in a situation like you say, frig complex where the incoming frig is tackled and can't get to the logi frig thanks to lol frig range. That is a really really small area though.
Doddy
Excidium.
#403 - 2012-09-06 09:47:02 UTC
Blade Ripley wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Belsina wrote:
its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor

because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)

think bout it ;)


Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles.
Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.


However, the Kestrel, Tristan, Breacher and Inqusitor also serves as the basis for the new stealth bombers. They are not the same hull anymore, but they are clearly enlarged derivates from the original hulls. So for the 3 other races, the stealhtbomber will be based of one of the combat frigates, while for the Amarr the stealh bomber will be based on the logistic frigate. That doesnt really makes sense. So in the interest of keeping a reasonable lore, I'd say switch the hulls.

If you are not doing it now, players will probably bug you about it for the next 5 years anyway Big smile


So how is the bomber being based on the laser frigate better than it being based on the logistics frigate?
Doddy
Excidium.
#404 - 2012-09-06 09:56:19 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.

They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).

I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.

An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.

This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.


3 v 1 is not a small advantage in numbers, its a factor of 3.

Really its your own fault for getting tackled out of range of the logi frigs anyway, what were you thinking?

Finally does anyone really have a problem with Fleet stabber, cynabal, vaga having something to fear? Surely the fact they can now be caught is good for game balance?
Alexandra Alt
Doomheim
#405 - 2012-09-11 12:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexandra Alt
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Discussion of tanking imbalances:
So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems.
Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range.
These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source.
That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter.


What about reducing the cycle times so the reps can hit fragile frigates faster?:
It's definitely an option we're keeping open, both to help deal with the armor/shield imbalances and also because these ships will so often be repping low buffer allies.


Since there are a lot of issues regarding the diference between cycles of armor and shield modules, why don't we just simply make them equal ?

It's already a given that balance needs to be made, and the only proper way to do it is to fix the source of the problem as you say so, therefore, why not make them equal, the repair is done at the start or at the end on both armor and shield, pick one (I would pick at the start) and then balacing headaches decrease.

Then it would be a hell lot easier to balance repairs on any system, with equal cycle times for smal/med/large repairs/boosters and we wouldn't require any more 'bandage' like balances to fix something that clearly provides imbalance at it's source.
Eran Cath
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2012-09-11 13:52:18 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
more drones for self defense would be nice


Agreed. Some more drone space but perhaps not being able to use rep-drones, would be "fitting"
JonnyRandom
#407 - 2012-09-11 16:51:13 UTC
I'm not in favour of this change.

While a support frigate does open new options for frigate fleets I think it is counter-intuitive to the nature of frigate fleets.
They are not long slug-fests. They are fast, deadly, and often end in the blink of an eye.

If support frigates are inevitable I would say it would be more fitting to provide offensive bonuses rather than defensive. Tracking links, etc.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#408 - 2012-09-12 02:11:00 UTC
Kitty Vintner wrote:

My new player experience: "Logistics ships look cool, let's just plot it out in evemon-oh it'll take like five months to get into one ~nevermind~".


Yep. Had the same experience, somewhat mitigated by the overlap in prereqs between the Ishtar and the Oneiros.

I will definitely fit up one of these and try to get a 3v3 fight (1 logi frig + 2 damage vs 3 damage) to see how they work out.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Imnothuman
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#409 - 2012-09-12 11:17:31 UTC
Tech 2 versions of these ships are much required it should not be too hard to make them balanced either

my thinking was the tech 2 bonuses should be something like

Amarr Logistics frigate Specialisation 5% to Armour resistances 5% increase to power grid per level
Role Bonus also adds 500% bonus to energy transfer range

Gallente Logistics Frigate Specialisation 5% to drone rep amount and health 5% increase to capacitor recharge rate (25m3 drone bay)
Role Bonus changes 650% range bonus for reps

Caldari Logistics Frigate Specialisation 5% shield resistances per level 5% to drone rep amount and health (5m3 drone bay)
Role Bonus also adds 500% bonus to energy transfer range

Mimmatar Logistics Frigate Specialisation 5% bonus to ship Velocity per level 5% increase to capacitor recharge rate (15m3 drone bay)
Role Bonus changes 650% range bonus for reps

Give each an extra mid and low slot along with the t2 resists but do something like give them a sensor strength of 8 at best, therefore people cannot use these as a constant because one griffin could jam you indefinitely.


Also if we are seeing the addition of these ships how long until Eve Uni + RVB wipes out test?
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#410 - 2012-09-12 15:10:20 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
My immediate gut reaction was "Well Done!", this certainly has the potential to shake up frigate combat and introduce some very fun mechanics into smaller hull combat. Needs testing though.

One concern I have is that this is going to further encourage multiboxing. Where currently everyone and their grandma has an off-grid booster and call it "solo", now they're going to have one more account for this "pocket healer". I mean it's great for CCP income-wise, but this will wreck a new player experience. Remember, no sane new player is going to pay for 2-3 subs (edit: especially now that F2P+store is becoming the norm, see SWTOR, GW2, etc.), and he won't be able to PLEX his account for a while, probably a month or two at best. When most people a new player fights, even at frigate level, are off-grid boosted AND logi-repaired, even ignoring the obscene advantage that the SP they have gives them...well...it just ain't gonna be fun.

Yes, I know, "join corp", "make friends", etc. All valid, but it still makes me ponder if this is pushing the game a little too much in the direction of "mandatory altagolism".

“further encourage multiboxing”
- I have multiboxed two combat ships, and I might consider multiboxing two logistic/support ships, but I don’t fancy trying to multibox a combat and a logistic/support ship at the same time.
- It would be quite a challenge to multibox two frigates in combat. I don’t think I could do it effectively.
- Logistic/Support ships are dog meat unless there are at least two of them to support each other. How many people can effectively multibox 3 frigates in PVP?

Effect on solo PVP:
- As Fozzie said 1v2 is not solo.
- Kill the support frigate first. Unless there are two support frigates, they should be an easy kill. Even if you loose your frigate, killing the Support frigate in a 1v2 should make you the winner in Points and often in Efficiency as well.

Off Grid Links:
- I thought they were planning on nerfing that? Multiboxing on-grid ships will not be the same as having your second account sitting at a safe spot.
Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#411 - 2012-09-12 16:06:23 UTC
Looks lovely. Will definitely make it easier to get Logis when you really need them. I'm just worried that they'll become too powerful to make anyone bother with T1-Logi Cruisers.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#412 - 2012-09-13 01:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Xindi Kraid
Love it. As a dyed-in-the-wool frigate captain, I look forward to anything that gets me more wolfpacks to fly in. As a person who also flies logistics, I am sure I will see time in one of these, escpecially the Navitas; I love the look of it, and am glad I will soon have a reason to actually fly one.

As to all the nay-sayers talking about how much these will make this, that or the other thing non-viable: In any situation, adding another another ship of any sort changes things. Don't talk about solo combat since a combat frigate and a support frigate is no more solo than if you had added another combat ship to the mix instead, and solo combat won't likely involve one of these ships any more than you are going to see a Scimitar going solo.


I should add, that I would very much like to see a T2 Logistics Frigate version that has fitting bonuses to use Medium remote reps sinilar to how Logi Cruisers can use Large remote reps. That might mean the logi frigate skill might need to be a prereq for logi cruiser, though.

Liang Nuren wrote:

A few comments about the ships:
- The fittings seem a bit low. I am concerned about being able to fit Prop mod, buffer, and a sufficient amount of remote repair.
- I know you wanted them to be slow, but a 5 second align time? Jeeeeeeezee.
- The mass seems pretty heavy. Frig fights are pretty fast moving affairs and I'm not sure that logi frigs would be able to keep up.

What do you say to two classes of logi frigs:
- Amarr/Caldari: Heavy logi frigs (akin to AFs) expected to be in brawls
- Minmatar/Gallente: Light logi frigs (akin to Inties) expected to be in kite gangs

-Liang

I am bad about theorycrafting fittings, so I won't comment on that part.
I do agree they seem a bit too slow. I know they are supposed to be sluggish, but I agree they need to keep up at least with the heaviest T1 combat frigate.

I like the idea about having a pair of heavier support frigates that are useful in bigger, slower gangs, and a set for lighter, faster gangs, and I agree with the choice of those ships. I would also like to add, that it would be nice to see similar bonuses to the Logi cruisers, so the Bantam and Inquisitor should get bonuses to energy transfer arrays and pair up, making them good for frigate fleet support, while the Navitas and Burst are better for smaller groups. Maybe give the latter two the same tracking link boost the Logi Cruiser counterparts have.
OT Smithers
Did he say Jump
Deepwater Hooligans
#413 - 2012-09-13 18:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: OT Smithers
Looks great!

Regarding Solo PvP: This is no way impacts it. If you engage in what you believe will be a 1v1 and they bring in help it is, by definition, no longer a 1v1. And if they were going to bring friends I would far rather face one of these than what we do today: seventeed Canes, two Drakes, a Falcon, a Rapier, and a Guardian all landing on the field to take out my shuttle.

The reality is that Eve PvP has never been 1v1 other than in formalized high sec duels or rare targets of opportunity, the game is not built that way and, so long as access to a fight is not restricted and the cost of admittance is high, it never will be.

With these, new pilots will have something additional they can offer; one more way to get into the actual game, and in a lower cost lower stress role. For veterans the sky is the limit. I could easily imagine entire corps dedicated to and specializing in frigate combat.
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#414 - 2012-09-13 18:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Heribeck Weathers
Im really really looking forward to these coming up. and anyone who says they are going to hurt small gang pvp is mostly wrong, i think of them kinda like a griffen, warps in at range and makes the fight harder, but you just have to send some one over to kill them and their fragile HP to get the fight back on track. Hell buffed griffens will be more annoyign than these in the winter

I do feel that they are a tad bit homoginized, yeah theur slot layout is diferant, but there should be some racial skill bonus in there to set them apart, like caldari one ges more rnage, but mimatar one gets more rep amount
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#415 - 2012-09-15 04:33:38 UTC
My 2 cents ... I would prefer a bonus to cycle time .. not to amount would make it more interesting and feasable. correct me if I am wrong.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Belsina
Noob Hole Project
#416 - 2012-09-15 17:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Belsina
this idea is not half bad

EXEPT for one MAJOR FACT: the inquisitor is the tech 1 version of the purifier in the game

so the inquisitor is MEANT to be a tech 1 frigate that is able to use some kind of missile launching system

next thing: for the no missing place in ur "rebalancing mission" take the amarr-ex-mining frigate Tormentor

like the other mining frigates from the other races (no one cares if it was "rebalanced" already)



on the other hand i really like the idea of small logistic vessels
Ashriban Kador
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#417 - 2012-09-16 12:55:08 UTC
Progression is not and never has been via hull. In this case it's: Inquisitor -> Augorer -> Guardian.

Progression is based on the ships role/specialization not on what hull it's based upon.

Stealth Bombers are actually outside normal progression as they are a specialized ship where no other ship type performs a similar role.

Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns.
Jehan Markow
Wu Si Yuan Luojishan
#418 - 2012-09-16 13:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jehan Markow
While I'm sure many players are excited at the prospect of frigate-class logistics, it is something that will transform the game into something entirely different. I don't know if CCP intends to make such a radical change, or if you guys are just doing it because you think you'll get more new players involved; but allow me to urge you to preserve the current setup for several reasons.

Let's start by reviewing your goals:
1) Create a new set of interesting gameplay choices when flying or fighting against frigate groups
2) Provide an upgrade path for new players on their way to Logistics ships

As to the first goal, I agree that logi frigs will add choices. But more choice is not always better. Under our current system, frigates can and should be expected to die when fighting an equal number of larger ships. Their advantage, though, is that they can hit-and-run and gtfo with minimal losses. The fact that frigates can die easily is an essential part of PVP. So is the fact that they can run away successfully from larger gangs. Adding logistics frigates gives what I would call unfair advantages to frig gangs above and beyond what they already have.

As to the second goal, does anybody really think we need a more complicated path to logistics ships? When I first came into the game, I saw that my corp needed people in logi cruisers, and I started training. The fact that the train was two months long and that they aren't high dps ships meant that I was one of two people out of 30 that even bothered. Once we had the ships, however, the reward was great, 8 months into the game. Creating a frigate path to the logi cruiser would diminish that reward, and still most players wouldn't train for it because they don't like the role. If you really want to diminish how long it takes to get into logi cruisers, why not strike some of the prerequisites instead?

Really, logistics is the sort of thing that should be risky, and the current setup of the game where players are discouraged from doing logistics is great for PVP. It means that only skilled players can excel in the role. If you flood the PVP player base with logistics by making it far more accessible, I shudder to think of the astronomical increase in logistics incompetence.

The great thing about the current balance of PVP ships in small gangs is that everybody aims for cruisers. You learn how to fly by using disposable frigates, and when you are competent, you move up to cruisers. When you have isk to invest, you fly T2 cruisers. New players for the most part are not interested in running logistics. Most new people barely know how to aim and shoot, and all the large PVP organisations know this. That's why we supply cheap frigates and destroyers for combat. Honestly, I don't want some noob mucking around in a logi boat, and I don't relish the thought of coming up with new guidelines for new players over new ships that are unnecessarily imbalanced. Of all the impending changes for the Winter, the addition of logi frigates has by far the most potential for revolutionising the game.

Why not think of what else you could do with these frigates besides logistics? One big thing missing under the DevBlog is CHOICE. It would be nice to have the option of two separate DPS roles for each race:
Caldari - missiles, hybrid turrets
Gallente - drones, hybrid turrets
Amarr - energy turrets, drones
Minmatar - projectile turrets, missiles
It would be great if we could get three options, that way we can choose long-range or short-range turrets. Why not focus on expanding the frigate classes in that direction? If you don't like the DPS idea, how about a second ewar hull per race (capacitor combat, stasis webs, warp scram/disruptor)? Also, how about a totally different kind of support: we still don't have any sensor booster ships, or any ships that provide projected ECCM bonuses.

All that said, I still don't see any reason to remove the mining laser bonuses. Let the ORE frigate outclass us. This still enables new players to get into mining ships without having to train another skill.

Also, don't use the word "support". It is a terribly nondescriptive word. As far as my guys use it, support means "Ewar, command, tackle, and logistics". If you can't just call these things logistics frigates, you're going to confuse a lot of that lowest common denominator you're aiming at with these changes.

I remember when CCP revamped the tutorial missions with the idea that players should experience ship loss to help them learn and grow. Whatever happened to that line of thinking? Frigate swarms should remain highly maneuverable and highly vulnerable. These logi frigates will just end up being a pain in the ass for those who fly them, and players will be discouraged from training into cruisers, where all the fun is at. Is that really what CCP wants to do here?
-JM
Gelvina
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#419 - 2012-09-18 13:58:55 UTC
This is awesome!

I'm fly t2 logistics cruisers every now and again and I think this is an excellent new frigate platform!

I'm assuming these will firstly be used with tech2 frigate gangs.
Therefore the repping targets will be things like jaguard having around 10k EHP.
Should work awesomely!
These small fleets is gonna make many tears :D

CCP:
Have you considered a duration reduction rather than an amount bonus?
(adjusting cap usage reductions accordingly obviously)

This will greatly help remote armour landing the reps in time.
And since since reps comes in more consistently will make it harder to alpha these small ships.

So for example Inquisitor:
frigate skill bonus:
10% reduction in remote armour repairer duration
20% reduction in remote armour repairer capacitor usage


Was wondering how much skill is needed on these to be cap stable with 3 reps and AB on?
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#420 - 2012-09-20 13:55:29 UTC
ok ... so now when u have small gang u and enemy brings logies u start to think how to

a) break them
b) blue ball them

It happens very rarely because logies are not used too much ....

now when everyone with the hole will use the logies .... will be less fights .... hmmm good move ....

or I will just bring arty thrahsers .... and some webs ....

I am quite neutral as I believe this move needs to be carefully tested