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Incursions need to be tweaked
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Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#81 - 2011-10-15 00:59:21 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

You argue a point whose validity has no bearing on the overall argument being made, though to be fair I'm doing the same thing (I'm not actually against a slight vg nerf, but people going around screaming ZOMG risk free 100mil/hour annoys me, since the claim itself is about as accurate as saying you make 100+mil per hour doing missions; it's technically true, but the vast majority can't even come close to that.)


I agree. It's the minority that reach 100++ m/hour while the majority are 60-70 m /hour and below.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#82 - 2011-10-15 02:24:54 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

You argue a point whose validity has no bearing on the overall argument being made, though to be fair I'm doing the same thing (I'm not actually against a slight vg nerf, but people going around screaming ZOMG risk free 100mil/hour annoys me, since the claim itself is about as accurate as saying you make 100+mil per hour doing missions; it's technically true, but the vast majority can't even come close to that.)


I agree. It's the minority that reach 100++ m/hour while the majority are 60-70 m /hour and below.

Which can be earned in lvl 4s, making vanguards a step above missions in terms of isk/hour, which is what they should be.
Maikhanh
Doomheim
#83 - 2011-10-15 06:38:40 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

Which can be earned in lvl 4s, making vanguards a step above missions in terms of isk/hour, which is what they should be.

I agree, but only the minority can earn 60m, 70m/h runnning L4s. majority cant reach that much
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-10-15 06:52:21 UTC
Maikhanh wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

Which can be earned in lvl 4s, making vanguards a step above missions in terms of isk/hour, which is what they should be.

I agree, but only the minority can earn 60m, 70m/h runnning L4s. majority cant reach that much


The majority can still earn more running vanguards. The minority can still earn more running vanguards. This is unironically working as intended.
Goose99
#85 - 2011-10-15 14:03:06 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Maikhanh wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

Which can be earned in lvl 4s, making vanguards a step above missions in terms of isk/hour, which is what they should be.

I agree, but only the minority can earn 60m, 70m/h runnning L4s. majority cant reach that much


The majority can still earn more running vanguards. The minority can still earn more running vanguards. This is unironically working as intended.


Actually, it's just the minority. The majority spend hours advertising their drakes, then give up and go home to run their lvl4s.Lol
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#86 - 2011-10-15 21:30:51 UTC
Maikhanh wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

Which can be earned in lvl 4s, making vanguards a step above missions in terms of isk/hour, which is what they should be.

I agree, but only the minority can earn 60m, 70m/h runnning L4s. majority cant reach that much

Decent pilots who collaborate earn more than good pilots who work alone. Good pilots who collaborate earn more than decent pilots who collaborate. This seems fairly well balanced IMHO. People like to whine about how incursions make so much compared to nullsec (which was nerfed way too hard, but that's an issue for another thread) are comparing highsec incursions to sanctums, rather than to nullsec incursions, which earn WAY more isk/hour than any other form of pve in the game save maybe c5-c6 escalations (having only ever run a few myself I can't say how much they average)
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2011-10-16 01:36:14 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Actually, it's just the minority. The majority spend hours advertising their drakes, then give up and go home to run their lvl4s.Lol


I see maybe 1 Drake a day advertised. More often I see a Mach with tech 1 guns and gyros than a Drake.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-10-16 01:58:15 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

You argue a point whose validity has no bearing on the overall argument being made, though to be fair I'm doing the same thing (I'm not actually against a slight vg nerf, but people going around screaming ZOMG risk free 100mil/hour annoys me, since the claim itself is about as accurate as saying you make 100+mil per hour doing missions; it's technically true, but the vast majority can't even come close to that.)


I agree. It's the minority that reach 100++ m/hour while the majority are 60-70 m /hour and below.

Which can be earned in lvl 4s, making vanguards a step above missions in terms of isk/hour, which is what they should be.


Rarely and with little consistency for L4's. Vanguards are far more consistent with their payout levels than the grab-bag you get with L4's plus getting to 60-70m an hour "consistently" in L4's takes a hell of a lot longer and tends to also require 2+ chars to pull it off.

As for Vanguards - slow the respawn down a lot. Make them competitive sites of value. Reduce the value a bit and increase the value of the higher end encounter to exceed them by a healthy margin.

If L4's are usually done at 25m-35m an hour - VG's should be aimed at 35m-50m an hour and the top end at 70m an hour for "average" style players. (better skills = more but they should pay based upon risks and scaling - right now they don't)
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#89 - 2011-10-16 02:34:22 UTC
Been watching the fanfest video for incursions.
I recommend all incursion runners who are serious about incursions to watch it, great stuff.

But here's what I tripped over. One of the audience question's regarding the vanguard sites being much more beneficial than the assault sites when putting the 2 vanguard fleets together.
The CCP dev responds by saying (and I am trying to quote as accurately as possible):

"One of the things about that is that it was sort of difficult to tell beforehand which sites were going to be the most popular. It's very difficult internally to get the player testing numbers of highly competent A-players emulate what was going to happen on TQ when you know 20 or 40 players working together and who have been playing the game a long time together.
So it's sort of hard to predict, one thing would just be necessarily say it is something that has to come in later duration. Maybe not necessarily, but it's most likely to come when you revisit it. See which ones are popular and then you can come back and annoy the players."

So CCP, when are you coming back to quickly revisit us and annoy us little bit by balancing out the site rewards? Blink

Source:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCf6pXHBFRM at 28 min. 20 seconds.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#90 - 2011-10-16 02:38:39 UTC
Mocam wrote:
Cambarus wrote:


Rarely and with little consistency for L4's. Vanguards are far more consistent with their payout levels than the grab-bag you get with L4's plus getting to 60-70m an hour "consistently" in L4's takes a hell of a lot longer and tends to also require 2+ chars to pull it off.

As for Vanguards - slow the respawn down a lot. Make them competitive sites of value. Reduce the value a bit and increase the value of the higher end encounter to exceed them by a healthy margin.

If L4's are usually done at 25m-35m an hour - VG's should be aimed at 35m-50m an hour and the top end at 70m an hour for "average" style players. (better skills = more but they should pay based upon risks and scaling - right now they don't)

The sorts of ships you need to pass the 100m/hour mark in incursions (pirate BSs/T3s) will be pulling you in 60mil an hour doing lvl 4s no problem. If you need to use 2 characters to make 60m/hour in missions, then you clearly don't have the knowledge/experience to be discussing the issue.

And you DEFINITELY don't have the experience to be talking about vanguards, since any time I've run them in the last few months we've had to compete for damn near every site. There's already lots of competition on the good sites, and the NMCs aren't making anyone 100mil/hour anyway, so arguing that they need a nerf is a tad silly. Just last night I was running with a fleet, and every time an OTA spawned, 3 fleets warped in to fight for it. There's plenty of competition as it is.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#91 - 2011-10-16 02:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Uh uh!! I just found the golden egg.
Quoting soundwave here:

"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "

39 min. 00 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCf6pXHBFRM

In other words, rewards in incursions. Working as intended.
Vanguards being most popular, NOT working as intended. According to CCP statements. Smile