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Tracking disruptors and missiles

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michaeltward
Black Heart Syndicate
Black Heart.
#1 - 2012-09-13 04:37:06 UTC

I saw around that ccp wanted to make tracking disruptors work on missiles now i dont think this idea is entirely a good one and i will exsplain why.

Missiles (all types) have less dps than guns but for this dps loss we get far greater range than guns.

If they make td's work on missiles sudenly our dps could be cut down even more than it already is compared to guns.

I think if they make td's work on missiles it should be a different td module for missiles only.

Here is how i think this module should work it should be mid slot like all ewar and not be a targeted system so in a fight you turn it on and leave it on if people are firing missiles at you.
This module would try to disrupt any missile fired at you some missiles could go haywire some may just shut off and the rest may do less than there total dps.

This module would not effect any missiles not fired at you so if your buddy is next to you and gets fired at there will be no disruption to the incoming missiles.

Here is why i think this module would be better than an ordanary td being able to disrupt missiles.
1 - There are not that many pvp ships out there that solely use missiles (there may be more than i think but there is no way its even close to 50/50 with guns)
2 - if an ordanary td could disrupt missiles the number of pvp ships using missiles would drop even more. (because we already lack the dps compared to guns a td would just ruin our time)
3 - A dedicated td module for missiles would mean that only people who know there going up against missiles would use it and there for in the small gang and solo pvp enviroment missiles would almost be uneffected.

Please reply and tell me what you think of this idea i use missiles and i know i am verry worried about how this will effect my small scale pvp gangs.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#2 - 2012-09-13 04:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
michaeltward wrote:

I saw around that ccp wanted to make tracking disruptors work on missiles now i dont think this idea is entirely a good one and i will exsplain why.

Missiles (all types) have less dps than guns but for this dps loss we get far greater range than guns.

If they make td's work on missiles sudenly our dps could be cut down even more than it already is compared to guns.

I think if they make td's work on missiles it should be a different td module for missiles only.

Here is how i think this module should work it should be mid slot like all ewar and not be a targeted system so in a fight you turn it on and leave it on if people are firing missiles at you.
This module would try to disrupt any missile fired at you some missiles could go haywire some may just shut off and the rest may do less than there total dps.

This module would not effect any missiles not fired at you so if your buddy is next to you and gets fired at there will be no disruption to the incoming missiles.

Here is why i think this module would be better than an ordanary td being able to disrupt missiles.
1 - There are not that many pvp ships out there that solely use missiles (there may be more than i think but there is no way its even close to 50/50 with guns)
2 - if an ordanary td could disrupt missiles the number of pvp ships using missiles would drop even more. (because we already lack the dps compared to guns a td would just ruin our time)
3 - A dedicated td module for missiles would mean that only people who know there going up against missiles would use it and there for in the small gang and solo pvp enviroment missiles would almost be uneffected.

Please reply and tell me what you think of this idea i use missiles and i know i am verry worried about how this will effect my small scale pvp gangs.



Look, IMO its good idea TD to affect missiles, but missiles to receive overhaul:

That they get near instant damage application (within 1s)

That explosion velocity and explosion radius penalties become better balanced and easier to overcome. Turret ships can overcome sig resolution and low tracking speed in various ways (TE, scripted TC, target painting, rigs), missiles cant. TP solves only sig resolution to some extent, not explosion velocity which needs expensive rigs. Also, in a turret ship I can chose to rig metastasis rig, to use TC, to use TE, or to use target painter. Missile users cant.

That Caldari ships get true selectable damage rather than being bonused for Scourge. It always seemed strange, that ship is bonused for one of many warhead types it can use. From sci-fi perspective it makes no sense. Like tank thats bonused for SABOT? Hell that makes absolutely no sense.

That chance to hit is introduced, comparable somewhat to tracking with guns, so that players can use their skill to decrease incoming damage - but very little compared to guns.

YOu say missiles wouldnt work in PVP otherwise, well idk, but everyone and their dog tanks against kinetic (Guardians for exampel, Hellcats), and kinetic is one of naturally highest resists on most ships. Only T2 Minmatar ships have kinetic hole.
But problem is not missiles themselves, but kinetic damage bonus on most Caldari ships.

With my idea, missiles would become on par with turrets even for sniping, and will become better than now. However theres no reason TD to be sub-par compared to ECM and SD, and not affect missiles too.
Martin0
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-09-13 07:20:16 UTC
About pvpers don't using missiles: are you kidding? Drake Blobs souds familiar to you?
If you check the new kestrel in F&I forum you will see that it get a damage bonus for ALL missiles.

Also missiles ALWAYS hit. Turrets don't, that's why turrets gets all those mods to increase tracking.

I would really like a counter to missiles, currently we have fail-defender that can only be fitted on missile boat.
michaeltward
Black Heart Syndicate
Black Heart.
#4 - 2012-09-13 07:25:37 UTC
im not saying td's shouldnt effect missiles but if they do i wouldnt want standard td's to effect them (not without a buff first atleast) thats where my indipendent td for missiles would make it a bit more balenced because people only exspecting to come across missile boats would fit them that means solo roaming and small gangs would be relitively uneffected it would be most used in large fleets.
michaeltward
Black Heart Syndicate
Black Heart.
#5 - 2012-09-13 07:29:30 UTC
Martin0 wrote:
About pvpers don't using missiles: are you kidding? Drake Blobs souds familiar to you?
If you check the new kestrel in F&I forum you will see that it get a damage bonus for ALL missiles.

Also missiles ALWAYS hit. Turrets don't, that's why turrets gets all those mods to increase tracking.

I would really like a counter to missiles, currently we have fail-defender that can only be fitted on missile boat.


Yes i heard of drake blobs but in general pvp guns are used more than missiles.

And you can avoid missiles if you go fast enough you can outrun the explosion vilocity.
And its easy to do a cruiser can avoid torps and cruse missiles easy.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-09-13 08:41:11 UTC
michaeltward wrote:
Martin0 wrote:
About pvpers don't using missiles: are you kidding? Drake Blobs souds familiar to you?
If you check the new kestrel in F&I forum you will see that it get a damage bonus for ALL missiles.

Also missiles ALWAYS hit. Turrets don't, that's why turrets gets all those mods to increase tracking.

I would really like a counter to missiles, currently we have fail-defender that can only be fitted on missile boat.


Yes i heard of drake blobs but in general pvp guns are used more than missiles.

And you can avoid missiles if you go fast enough you can outrun the explosion vilocity.
And its easy to do a cruiser can avoid torps and cruse missiles easy.




Unless you mean station/gate camping, missiles are all over the place.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#7 - 2012-09-13 08:41:27 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
michaeltward wrote:

I saw around that ccp wanted to make tracking disruptors work on missiles now i dont think this idea is entirely a good one and i will exsplain why.

Missiles (all types) have less dps than guns but for this dps loss we get far greater range than guns.

If they make td's work on missiles sudenly our dps could be cut down even more than it already is compared to guns.

I think if they make td's work on missiles it should be a different td module for missiles only.

Here is how i think this module should work it should be mid slot like all ewar and not be a targeted system so in a fight you turn it on and leave it on if people are firing missiles at you.
This module would try to disrupt any missile fired at you some missiles could go haywire some may just shut off and the rest may do less than there total dps.

This module would not effect any missiles not fired at you so if your buddy is next to you and gets fired at there will be no disruption to the incoming missiles.

Here is why i think this module would be better than an ordanary td being able to disrupt missiles.
1 - There are not that many pvp ships out there that solely use missiles (there may be more than i think but there is no way its even close to 50/50 with guns)
2 - if an ordanary td could disrupt missiles the number of pvp ships using missiles would drop even more. (because we already lack the dps compared to guns a td would just ruin our time)
3 - A dedicated td module for missiles would mean that only people who know there going up against missiles would use it and there for in the small gang and solo pvp enviroment missiles would almost be uneffected.

Please reply and tell me what you think of this idea i use missiles and i know i am verry worried about how this will effect my small scale pvp gangs.



Look, IMO its good idea TD to affect missiles, but missiles to receive overhaul:

That they get near instant damage application (within 1s)

That explosion velocity and explosion radius penalties become better balanced and easier to overcome. Turret ships can overcome sig resolution and low tracking speed in various ways (TE, scripted TC, target painting, rigs), missiles cant. TP solves only sig resolution to some extent, not explosion velocity which needs expensive rigs. Also, in a turret ship I can chose to rig metastasis rig, to use TC, to use TE, or to use target painter. Missile users cant.

That Caldari ships get true selectable damage rather than being bonused for Scourge. It always seemed strange, that ship is bonused for one of many warhead types it can use. From sci-fi perspective it makes no sense. Like tank thats bonused for SABOT? Hell that makes absolutely no sense.

That chance to hit is introduced, comparable somewhat to tracking with guns, so that players can use their skill to decrease incoming damage - but very little compared to guns.

YOu say missiles wouldnt work in PVP otherwise, well idk, but everyone and their dog tanks against kinetic (Guardians for exampel, Hellcats), and kinetic is one of naturally highest resists on most ships. Only T2 Minmatar ships have kinetic hole.
But problem is not missiles themselves, but kinetic damage bonus on most Caldari ships.

With my idea, missiles would become on par with turrets even for sniping, and will become better than now. However theres no reason TD to be sub-par compared to ECM and SD, and not affect missiles too.


Screw it, why not just get rid of missiles and replace missile bonuses with turret bonuses?

Oh god.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#8 - 2012-09-13 08:43:12 UTC
Also about TDs affecting missiles, why should they? Unless you are locking onto the missile itself, I don't see any reason why using a TD should affect missiles.

Oh god.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-09-13 08:57:25 UTC
Better to introduce a new ewar type with a missile TD effect, rather than adding a missile TD effect to current TDs, they're powerful enough.
Digg Kula
DK Laboratory
#10 - 2012-09-13 09:08:04 UTC
One tracking disrupter per incomming missile.
That should fix it, no mid slots for any other thing while facing seven incomming missiles.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#11 - 2012-09-13 09:15:42 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Also about TDs affecting missiles, why should they? Unless you are locking onto the missile itself, I don't see any reason why using a TD should affect missiles.


It can affect guidance system of the missile, or their proximity sensors.

And about your statement above that psot: delayed damage is bad. Missiles will either be very like guns or very sub-par because of that. And if they get instant damage application, making them always hit to would be too much.

Much can be retained of their unique abilities even with variable chance to hit: great damage projection, selectable damage and being hard to evade ("get under the guns").
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#12 - 2012-09-13 09:31:30 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
It can affect guidance system of the missile, or their proximity sensors.

But tracking disruptors affect turrets, not ammo.
Quote:


And about your statement above that psot: delayed damage is bad. Missiles will either be very like guns or very sub-par because of that. And if they get instant damage application, making them always hit to would be too much.

Much can be retained of their unique abilities even with variable chance to hit: great damage projection, selectable damage and being hard to evade ("get under the guns").

I was kind of being sarcastic because the changes you suggested would make the missile launchers too similar to turrets. What would be the point of having missiles if you are just going to turn them so similar to turrets for the sake of 'balance'?

Sorry if it comes across as being rude but I'm not really a fan of the balance thing... I prefer things to make sense for the sake of immersion and keeping things believable. It makes sense that ships should be balanced because the navies would design ships to be competitive with the other empires and for those ships to be effective in various situations and operations. It doesn't make sense that missiles should be balanced with guns because missiles are not guns.

Oh god.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#13 - 2012-09-13 09:51:48 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:
It can affect guidance system of the missile, or their proximity sensors.

But tracking disruptors affect turrets, not ammo.
Quote:


And about your statement above that psot: delayed damage is bad. Missiles will either be very like guns or very sub-par because of that. And if they get instant damage application, making them always hit to would be too much.

Much can be retained of their unique abilities even with variable chance to hit: great damage projection, selectable damage and being hard to evade ("get under the guns").

I was kind of being sarcastic because the changes you suggested would make the missile launchers too similar to turrets. What would be the point of having missiles if you are just going to turn them so similar to turrets for the sake of 'balance'?

Sorry if it comes across as being rude but I'm not really a fan of the balance thing... I prefer things to make sense for the sake of immersion and keeping things believable. It makes sense that ships should be balanced because the navies would design ships to be competitive with the other empires and for those ships to be effective in various situations and operations. It doesn't make sense that missiles should be balanced with guns because missiles are not guns.


Theres much less wrong with it, than having two Guardians create extra energy (capacitor) from nowhere.

Well from the point of view of believability, why FFS Caldari Navy would waste funds designing long range sniping missile ships when enemy can just warp off? How that adds to the immersion and is believable?
Denuo Secus
#14 - 2012-09-13 10:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Turrets have an advantage over missiles since they can switch to short range, high damage ammo and do alot more damage without changing the fitting. A missile ship cannot do this. They do equal damage over all ranges. Which can be good and bad at the same time.

So turrets have a more flexibility here. In addition they can *blap* smaller ships just by maneuvering. To make missile ships really effective against smaller ships (not wearing them down slowly) they need to be fitted especially for that job.

In exchange missiles are more or less ewar immune. It's all good imho. TDs affecting missiles would lead to imbalance. Especially if all this could be done by one module. TDs are omnipresent already. If they would affect missiles as well they would become a mandatory module.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#15 - 2012-09-13 10:19:48 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
why FFS Caldari Navy would waste funds designing long range sniping missile ships when enemy can just warp off? How that adds to the immersion and is believable?

Because the guy who got the contract to design the missiles is a mason and the son of an inter-galactic business giant who has ties to a lot of people in high places. It's all about bribery and secret handshakes, just like real life.

Oh god.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#16 - 2012-09-13 10:23:06 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Turrets have an advantage over missiles since they can switch to short range, high damage ammo and do alot more damage without changing the fitting. A missile ship cannot do this. They do equal damage over all ranges. Which can be good and bad at the same time.

So turrets have a more flexibility here. In addition they can *blap* smaller ships just by maneuvering. To make missile ships really effective against smaller ships (not wearing them down slowly) they need to be fitted especially for that job.

In exchange missiles are more or less ewar immune. It's all good imho. TDs affecting missiles would lead to imbalance. Especially if all this could be done by one module. TDs are omnipresent already. If they would affect missiles as well they would become a mandatory module.


This guy gets it.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#17 - 2012-09-13 10:28:06 UTC
i could accept tracking disruptor affecting missile only if we get tracking enhancer/computer to affect missile as well.

but i think its better to leave the things as they are for diversity sake
Chakarr
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-09-13 11:54:08 UTC
Tracking disruptors should not work on missiles, we just need to make defenders worth using, something like:

> Make defender missiles now be loaded into new defender modules, highslot, no missile hardpoint required.

> Make them work like other ewar - ie. target an enemy ship, the module then fires missiles to intercept the target's missiles each cycle regardless of whether the missiles are targetting you or not...making them a useful fleet tool if fielded in numbers and co-ordinated properly, just like other ewar.

> Flight times, velocity, timing and skills will ensure a certain amount of randomness to thier effectiveness so as not to make them a mandatory overpowered module...
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#19 - 2012-09-13 12:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Tracking Disruptors should not affect missiles and rockets. Both weapon systems are penaltized by low DPS, issues hitting small / fast targets and the fact that target may even outrun the missile (which easily happens if you are chasing a fast target). The only benefit they have is that they a realiable in the sense that you usually at least do some (sometimes very small) damage if you hit and that you are not affected by tracking disruptors. This is a fair trade.

Please don't make everything equal in the game, then it will get boring. Differences add choices and thus spice to the life in EVE.
Iyica de Tylmarand
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-09-13 12:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyica de Tylmarand
I would be strongly against anything that nerfs missiles until explosion radius and velocity become easier to deal with. It's difficult enough to apply missile damage as it is. Also please make Cruise Missiles viable for PVP. The reason Drake blobs are popular is because of their range, which can be countered by sensor damps (lore wise, isn't that why Gallante ships get bonuses to damps?).
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