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[Winter] Support Cruisers

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-09-12 19:06:17 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Quote:
Tracking link is a niche bonus hardly used outside of incursions... A bonus to eccm projectors is more of a pvp bonus which has much more applications...


All the more reason to put it on the pvp map im sure a brutix would love a nice range boost especially mine :)


And before incursions how often were they used? Pretty much non existent... There is a good reason they are hardly used for pvp...



Because the 2 ships with the bonus's lack enough slots and secondary use to be worth using

And they have the same number of slots as t1 support ships. It all comes down to which one, both could be used, a tracking link ship is already in the game. A eccm projector is just there as of now. This could help counteract the ECM is OP group as now there is a ship that can defend against it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#182 - 2012-09-12 21:52:46 UTC
As CCP Fozzie hinted at a ECM changes in the disruption frig thread and in his recent podcast interview. I am not so sure about promoting a ECCM bonus till I knew what those changes might bring. It might be a larger 5th wheel than a Drone Rep bonus when it is all said and done.
Lili Lu
#183 - 2012-09-12 23:12:43 UTC
I see people are still hating on the proposed rep drone bonuses for the Exeq and Scythe. So I'm gonna quote my earlier post, because it got 4 likes P

Lili Lu wrote:
Some people have mentioned swapping out the rep drone bonuses on the Scythe and Exequror for range and/or strength bonuses to remote eccm and remote sensor boosters. This would be something new to the game, and would be a power the tech II logis presently lack. Now one could later buff the tech II logis to retain this bonus.

However, the problem comes that then these ships would quite possibly not get use as logis but instead as gate camper support ships. Also, it would mean bonusing mods that go in mids, which has always been a problem with the present tracking link bonuses on tech II logis. Mids that are effectively in short supply on either ship for differing reasons. Also that is a bonus which is largely ignored except for incursion runners. And well if we are going to determine ship bonuses based on incursion runners wishes then let's just call the game Incursions Online.

Therefore, I think the rep drone bonus is actually about the best that can be done. Of course rep drones could use a buff to speed and durability. That might give the bonus some meaningful use. And the general drone interface needs to be simplified. Right clicking and scrolling to engage target is slower than a sinlgle click or f button for the remote reppers. The delay from the interface and the travel time is why rep drones lack favor. But if these issues can be addressed the rep drone bonus is a good secondary bonus for these 2 ships.

Scythes need their mids for their own tank. If they were given a remote tracking, eccm, or sensor boosting bonus they would have to use mids for this. If then CCP reworked the stats for more mids and cpu then the possiblities come in for ultra shield tanking (asbs or extenders/resists) as well as simply making these ships gate camping gankers dream ships instead of logis.

And the Exeq needs it's mids for cap rechargers or batteries or injectors plus propulsion and local eccm or sensor booster. To throw mid slot mod bonuses will only upset the cap situation for it (again assuming anyone would really care about it's repping and wouldn't just instead make it a remote ganker's best friend).

I certainly am not thrilled with a drone bonus, because I'm not happy with the drone interface, ai, and performance. But, those are things that hopefully can be improved (hint Blink). The drone bonust would keep all the tech I logis as repping ships and not as ewar boosters that might only create new imbalances. One has to look at the health of the game as a whole. And not let one's dissatisfaction with the drone interface lead to a move away from using drones and instead creating a mess with radically new bonuses.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#184 - 2012-09-12 23:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: MIrple
Maybe an easier idea would be to just allow for the recon ships to apply there bonuses to both so the Rook would be ECM and ECCM. The Curse would be tracking disrupt and tracking bonus. The Lanchese would be Sensor Damp and Remote Sensor Booster. Now the Huginn only has one ECM mod Target painting. Could CCP make a target masking mod or would this be way OP. In my mind this would be way OP. Just a though and that would also free up another bonuses for the Scimi and Onerios. Just a though but this would make more sense when looking at the lines of ship duty.

Edit: This could work for any ship that gives bonuses to this so frig on up
Lili Lu
#185 - 2012-09-12 23:18:57 UTC
Nice post Mlrple. Yes. Any kind of a remote sensor boosting, eccm, or tracking bonus really should be on another ship, which could be a recon. Added bonus is that then the recon could misclick and end up ecm-ing his own fleet mate P instead of shoring up his eccm, etc.

However, even if such a bonus were to be doled out to those ships CCP would have to be very careful about not creating the next Falcon alt problem.

In any case, these bonuses really don't belong on dedicated tech I logis.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#186 - 2012-09-12 23:32:48 UTC
I am not trying to derail this thread this is just an idea on how to make this work for ships. I mean if they want T1 to be more general then T2 would focus on one or the other. The Celestis for example could have for example bonuses to both Sensor Dampeners and Remote Sensor Boosters but when you transition into T2 the Recons are dedicated aggressive EWAR and either a new ship class would have to emerge to take the friendly EWAR slot or just leave it so T1 ships have more of a role to fit into large fleets. This would help Logistic ships as a whole also the the present bonuses on the Gal and Mimmy secondary bonus is lacking IMO.
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-09-13 00:12:15 UTC
why such a small drone bay on osprey compaired to the others ?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2012-09-13 00:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
While I am not entirely against logistic drone bonuses on the support cruisers, it was stated on the support frigates logistic drones are very skill intensive, and the bonus to them would suggest to rookies trying out cruisers that they should use them as a main RR source, and training for T2 logistic drones takes around 20 days. Very deterring to a new player, I have a whole lot of SP in drones and a bonus of this sort would benefit me very well but a 2~3 month old toon it could be very distracting

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#189 - 2012-09-13 01:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Lili Lu wrote:


In any case, these bonuses really don't belong on dedicated tech I logis.


i respectfully disagree.

what if they moved projected ECCM to a high slot? that way it would not mess with mid slot stuff...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-09-13 03:15:16 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
I see people are still hating on the proposed rep drone bonuses for the Exeq and Scythe. So I'm gonna quote my earlier post, because it got 4 likes P

Lili Lu wrote:
Some people have mentioned swapping out the rep drone bonuses on the Scythe and Exequror for range and/or strength bonuses to remote eccm and remote sensor boosters. This would be something new to the game, and would be a power the tech II logis presently lack. Now one could later buff the tech II logis to retain this bonus.

However, the problem comes that then these ships would quite possibly not get use as logis but instead as gate camper support ships. Also, it would mean bonusing mods that go in mids, which has always been a problem with the present tracking link bonuses on tech II logis. Mids that are effectively in short supply on either ship for differing reasons. Also that is a bonus which is largely ignored except for incursion runners. And well if we are going to determine ship bonuses based on incursion runners wishes then let's just call the game Incursions Online.

Therefore, I think the rep drone bonus is actually about the best that can be done. Of course rep drones could use a buff to speed and durability. That might give the bonus some meaningful use. And the general drone interface needs to be simplified. Right clicking and scrolling to engage target is slower than a sinlgle click or f button for the remote reppers. The delay from the interface and the travel time is why rep drones lack favor. But if these issues can be addressed the rep drone bonus is a good secondary bonus for these 2 ships.

Scythes need their mids for their own tank. If they were given a remote tracking, eccm, or sensor boosting bonus they would have to use mids for this. If then CCP reworked the stats for more mids and cpu then the possiblities come in for ultra shield tanking (asbs or extenders/resists) as well as simply making these ships gate camping gankers dream ships instead of logis.

And the Exeq needs it's mids for cap rechargers or batteries or injectors plus propulsion and local eccm or sensor booster. To throw mid slot mod bonuses will only upset the cap situation for it (again assuming anyone would really care about it's repping and wouldn't just instead make it a remote ganker's best friend).

I certainly am not thrilled with a drone bonus, because I'm not happy with the drone interface, ai, and performance. But, those are things that hopefully can be improved (hint Blink). The drone bonust would keep all the tech I logis as repping ships and not as ewar boosters that might only create new imbalances. One has to look at the health of the game as a whole. And not let one's dissatisfaction with the drone interface lead to a move away from using drones and instead creating a mess with radically new bonuses.

Two things that would make the drone bonus on the ship keepable and useful would be, reduce the skill requirement of T2 logistic drones from "Repair Drone Operation V" down to "Repair Drone Operation IV" and have the effects of drone interfacing apply to logistic drones as well.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Calsys
Monks of War
#191 - 2012-09-13 05:46:50 UTC
Calsys wrote:
meh

CCP what are you doing?
kills logy pilots and boost noobs
are you really think thats a good idea?

Today's Basilisk
Large ST T2 - 384 - 71,4 km
Medium ST T2 - 192 - 51km

Future's Osprey
Large ST T2 - 672 - 92,4 km
Medium ST T2 - 336 - 66 km

ShockedShockedShocked


I havnt received an answer to my question...
Can someone answer for it?
Why Osprey will be OP than Basilisk?
or just restrict LST and LAR at t1 logy.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2012-09-13 06:56:21 UTC
Calsys wrote:
Calsys wrote:
meh

CCP what are you doing?
kills logy pilots and boost noobs
are you really think thats a good idea?

Today's Basilisk
Large ST T2 - 384 - 71,4 km
Medium ST T2 - 192 - 51km

Future's Osprey
Large ST T2 - 672 - 92,4 km
Medium ST T2 - 336 - 66 km

ShockedShockedShocked


I havnt received an answer to my question...
Can someone answer for it?
Why Osprey will be OP than Basilisk?
or just restrict LST and LAR at t1 logy.

The T1 ships are set up for medium reps not large. If you have decent fitting skills you can fit 1 large rep on them

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Calsys
Monks of War
#193 - 2012-09-13 07:15:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Calsys
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

The T1 ships are set up for medium reps not large. If you have decent fitting skills you can fit 1 large rep on them


what?

i can fit TWO large reps at osprey with two LSE meta4, two shield adaptives t2, mwd, dc t2, which is equal T2 logist but MUCH cheaper than t2 logy and repair some more (~1100 (3 reps with 360 each) vs ~1300 (TWO REPS WITH 640 EACH)).

discuss.
Barrak
The Painted Ones
#194 - 2012-09-13 07:32:59 UTC
One thing that I don't understand with some of the bonuses you chaps give to the ships is 'role' bonuses.

Whilst I appreciate in many cases they are needed, on the T1 ships I think they should simply be tied into the cruiser skills.

1000% increase to Repair range?

Why not simply 200% per cruiser level?

I know that you want them running at similar ranges to the T2 varieties (which I only get 150% per level) but even those are based on the cruiser skill.

Are we so scared of forcing some level 5 skill requirements onto people?

Am I wrong in thinking that a level 1 cruiser will have better range than it's T2 counterpart? (assuming both are using medium reppers).

Barrak
Juniorama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-09-13 07:46:48 UTC
I don't see why people keep bashing the drone interface. There is no need to use a drop down menu to make your drones engage. There is no need to recover your drones if you will be returning to grid.

How to engage a drone on a target.

1.) Select Target
2.) Press "F" key (this is not one of the function keys but the actual F key, unless you have altered this shortcut)

How to reconnect to "lost drones" after you warp away.

1.) Warp back to the grid
2.) Right click your ship.
3.) Select reconnect to drones

There are also shortcuts available for drones to return and orbit and drones to return to drone bay.

If you know that your chance of success hinges on the surviability of one drone, then you know it is time to gtfo when that drone goes poof.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#196 - 2012-09-13 07:54:03 UTC
What are the primary clients of these things supposed to be?

The logistics frigates have a very clear, albeit narrow, defined role by having enough to matter for frigs/dessies but not enough for larger hulls.
T2 logistics cruisers have enough for everything up to but not including capitals.
T1 logistics cruisers will have same client pool as the T2 versions .. .. why not reduce repped amount a bit to focus them more on cruisers/BCs to set them apart from the advanced cousins?

@Barrak: Was stated that role bonuses are used in lieu of levelled ditto to make them more newbie friendly, if it was levelled then by the time you have maximized their potential (and is guaranteed a place in fleets) you might as well hop into the better T2 versions.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#197 - 2012-09-13 09:02:23 UTC
Barrak wrote:


1000% increase to Repair range?

Why not simply 200% per cruiser level?


Because these ships need to be able to fly alongside T2 logi. With a range bonus tied to level, they don't have the same range until V, whereupon you should be in a T2 logi anyway. Much better to make rep amount, resists, sig etc inferior to T2 rather than range.

Re. projected ECCM and remote sensor boosters. I agree that they don't really belong on these ships. I don't think giving a ship a bonus to RSBs is a good idea anyway, its main use would just be in gate camping which is a bad mechanic that should not be encouraged.
Lunaleil Fournier
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2012-09-13 09:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunaleil Fournier
Awesome job planning ahead to make sure that T1 Logis can keep up in fleets. I really like the idea of T1 logistics cruisers in general - it will open up opportunities for more players in fleets.

Since we're talking logistics ships, we should at least discuss the armor vs shield rep issue. Remote armor reps hit at the end of the cycle so a lot of fleets natuarlly gravitate to shield fleets just due to pure practicality of shield repping.

Any thoughts to making remote armor reps hit at the begining of the cycle to level the playing field?
LePaJ
My Little Pony Industries Inc.
RED.OverLord
#199 - 2012-09-13 10:18:28 UTC
How after logistics cruisers rebalance (and T1 frigates and cruisers) will be carrying out their survival with MWD against Tier3 BC. 3 Tornadoes destroy any cruiser, not moving at right angles.
Does the option depending on the signature of shield transfer and armor repair from the ship mass parameter to better distinguish the role of logisticians. We have 4 groups now, not 2. Like t2 logi (large) are good vs 150+ signature. T1 ones with 60+ sig. And frigla with all. Capitals with BS+.
And how to treat the problem tanking crusers with BS size modules (1600mm, LSE), 1000 shield or 2400 armor are useless to install?
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#200 - 2012-09-13 10:20:38 UTC
Let me help you CCP:

---------------- Intercepted Communication -------------------

From: Kasukell Bjaren, Core Complexion
To: Mastance Seillaerdt, Roden
Subject: Displacement Field Projection Prototype

Dear Mastance,

I'm sending you a prototype of a new unit we've been working on. Most of the work is done by our common friend Oggand. Those Thukker scientists have come up with something useful again. When you first look at the module it looks like a target painter. But they have managed to reverse the flow of particle accelerator inside, which results in the bending of photons in the "Painting" area.

The result is very surprising. The ship that is subjected to this field looks as if it is randomly displacing in an area. As if it is in a warp bubble, but bubble size is as small as ship size. Our test equipment had trouble locking the subject. We thought it was because of a malfunction on our side. But appearently that wasn't the case.

The module causes the signature radius of the subject to get smaller. It is not by a big amount. But the effects show around 5-10% of reduction in signature. We were very excited when the first results came in....but we also noticed that it has a drawback. We don't really think it is possible to use efficiently in all ships. The pod communication routines used by module are very similar to those used in logistics ships. When used by other vessels there is a huge power consumption.

It is no secret that we are working on a new Scythe class Vessel. I also have heard that you guys are working on a new Exequror. I believe incorporating this design will be benefical to our side in waging conflict. I'm attaching some additional data for you to work on.

Best Regards,
Kasukell Bjaren, Core Complexion Head Scientist

Attachment:

Displacement Field Projection Module

Power slot: Med Slot
Fitting: 1000MW PG 33 TF CPU
Activation: 10
Duration: 10
Effect: 7.5% reduction in signature of target (Stacking penalized)
Range: 40km + 15km

Affecting skills
Frequency Modulation - 5% more falloff per level.
Long Distance Jamming - 5% more optimal per level.
Signature Focusing - 5% more effectiveness per level.
Target Painting - 5% less capacitor cost per level.

Role Bonus for Scythe and Exequror ships: 95% reduction in PG needs of Displacement Field Projection Modules.

------------ End of Intercepted Communication --------------------------