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Fixing Super Capitals is nice, but what about the real problem?

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Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-10-14 19:28:16 UTC
Deopheel Dalonne wrote:
The flaw I think EvE's game mechanics has is that it seems impossible for large numbers of weak ships to beat a handful of powerful ones.

do you know where goonswarm got their name
Deopheel Dalonne
Eridu Productions
#22 - 2011-10-14 19:34:31 UTC
Killstealing wrote:
Deopheel Dalonne wrote:
The flaw I think EvE's game mechanics has is that it seems impossible for large numbers of weak ships to beat a handful of powerful ones.

do you know where goonswarm got their name

I would indeed to be interested to know that.

What scenario are we talking about here. A battleship-only fleet beating a handful of supercaps ?

Even that would be hard to believe ...
Avid Bumhumper
Beekeepers Anonymous
#23 - 2011-10-14 19:43:31 UTC
Deopheel Dalonne wrote:
Killstealing wrote:
Deopheel Dalonne wrote:
The flaw I think EvE's game mechanics has is that it seems impossible for large numbers of weak ships to beat a handful of powerful ones.

do you know where goonswarm got their name

I would indeed to be interested to know that.

What scenario are we talking about here. A battleship-only fleet beating a handful of supercaps ?

Even that would be hard to believe ...



143 Goon canes took down a supercap...

My Tinfoil hat has been sugically implanted, so no,it is not for sale.....
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#24 - 2011-10-14 19:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
For people that like to "PvP" with other players of similar stats in equal numbers, there are an infinite number of games with "arenas".

This is the sandbox. HTFU or GTFO.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#25 - 2011-10-14 19:54:35 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
For people that like to "PvP" with other players of similar stats in equal numbers, there are an infinite number of games with "arenas".

This is the sandbox. HTFU or GTFO.



You're missing the point - noone is talking about 'equal-numbers-fairy-fights' but an actual reason for small gangs to exist.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#26 - 2011-10-14 19:56:45 UTC
Deopheel Dalonne wrote:
Killstealing wrote:
Deopheel Dalonne wrote:
The flaw I think EvE's game mechanics has is that it seems impossible for large numbers of weak ships to beat a handful of powerful ones.

do you know where goonswarm got their name

I would indeed to be interested to know that.



They started out with a swarm of newbies in frigates and went right out to 0.0 to conquer the world.

Then they made a cool video.

At that point I think they won Eve and now they're just looking for the next sand castle to knock over. :)

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Deopheel Dalonne
Eridu Productions
#27 - 2011-10-14 20:11:32 UTC
So if it is indeed possible for largish fleets of small ships to beat smallish groups of powerful ships, why are people whining so much about supercaps ?

What is the problem ? Why would it be necessary to "rebalance" them ?
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2011-10-14 22:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sri Nova
Blobbing could be coped with, if ccp could figure out a workable implementation of area of effect veapons.

or use current in game mechanics + meta gaming to build up a fleet of uber noobs in stealth bombers to go KAI KAI KAI AIEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!!!!! KAboom
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-10-14 23:06:07 UTC
Avid Bumhumper wrote:
143 Goon canes took down a supercap...

Our welpfleet has destroyed a bunch of supercaps. The forces of ~elite PvP~ are now afraid of minmatar battlecruisers.
Hayaishi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2011-10-14 23:52:31 UTC
Mixne
More Money More Problems
#31 - 2011-10-15 00:40:14 UTC
The trick to "fixing" this would be to provide worthwhile objectives or targets that can ONLY be completed by smaller fleets or gangs. Give people a rewarding reason to field a smaller fleet of a skilled gang and they WILL do it. My experience in MMOs has taught me that people tend to do things that require the least effort and provide the greatest reward, while spending the least amount of time possible gaining that reward. Take this concept and apply it to the way the devs "want" people to play the game and people will play the game that way.
Dr EviI
MESON Syndicate
#32 - 2011-10-15 09:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr EviI
Skippermonkey wrote:
blobbing is not a game mechanic, its common sense

twenty drakes will beat ten drakes


That makes sense to you maybe, but only because you havent used your brain before posting. Re-read the thread and maybe you will notice the sense of it.
I quote for you:
Quote:
When will you change the gameplay in a way that blobbing is not the way fights will be won but tactic on the battlefield?


In history nearly ALL big battles were NOT won because of bigger numbers but better tactics. Hannibal beated several huge romanian armies with little numbers. The germans killed several more russions in stalingrad than they had soldiers on their side. There are a lot more examples.

Eves game mechanic problem is that you dont have a lot of influence in a battle. Your FC tells you what to shoot and you shoot. You just need to klick on target, fire weapon and reload maybe, thats it. There is no clever movement, no aiming, no hiding and so on. Thats because bigger number is always better. In real life it wouldnt. Placing 1000 soldiers in a small area is NOT the best tactic. Friendly fire and area of effect weapons are just some points why not.
But these aspects are not in Eve so there is no sense in thinking about placement of ships, hiding or ambushing. Even friendly fire does not exist. Also there are no area of effect weapons (smartbombs and bombs from covert ops are too weak/too small).
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2011-10-15 09:47:54 UTC
EVE space needs "terrain". In terms of land combat: Things to hide in (bushes), things which slow you (rivers), things which stop you (boulders), things which give you bonus range (hills).

I believe space "terrain" is on CCP's future-vision list. This is years and years and years away, however.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2011-10-15 09:52:49 UTC
Capacity gear wrote:
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:
blobbing is not a game mechanic, its common sense
twenty drakes will beat ten drakes

It's nice to see that I'm not the only one in the game who understands fundamental military strategy.


''fundamental military strategy''

hmmmm debatable,. more is just more,. more players on a team in a sport gives better chance of win,. as do more lottery tickets give a better chance of winning,
calling it a ''fundamental military strategy'' makes you sound like an ass.

problem is: he's right. Show 1 real war conflict won fast by weaker opponent? You only have chance to get your enemy bored and stoped.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-10-15 10:12:12 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Dr EviI wrote:

In history nearly ALL big battles were NOT won because of bigger numbers but better tactics. Hannibal beated several huge romanian armies with little numbers. The germans killed several more russions in stalingrad than they had soldiers on their side. There are a lot more examples.

Can't speak about Hannibal... But You are not right about WW2 and Stalingrad. Take a look to history to understand what happened there and why russians were needed to drop people to germans. The same is about near all WW2 pre-1943 battles.

Dr EviI wrote:

Eves game mechanic problem is that you dont have a lot of influence in a battle. Your FC tells you what to shoot and you shoot. You just need to klick on target, fire weapon and reload maybe, thats it. There is no clever movement, no aiming, no hiding and so on. Thats because bigger number is always better. In real life it wouldnt. Placing 1000 soldiers in a small area is NOT the best tactic. Friendly fire and area of effect weapons are just some points why not.
But these aspects are not in Eve so there is no sense in thinking about placement of ships, hiding or ambushing. Even friendly fire does not exist. Also there are no area of effect weapons (smartbombs and bombs from covert ops are too weak/too small).


Why do You speak about 200-years ago war style? Do you know anything about wars of last years? Would you say USA droped weaker army to Iraq? And won because of genius strategy? Or maybe Libya has comparable forces to NATO for defend itself?
There is no friendly-fire when you use last-step airforce to break whole enemy defence BEFORE landing. There is almost no friendly fire when you shoot missiles on each enemy soldier or just suspicious person 100km away from you as it happened often in Iraq and Afganistan some time ago.

I agree there was some battles or wars won by weaker opponent. But i can't call this "nearly ALL". I would call it "exception".

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#36 - 2011-10-15 10:21:29 UTC
David and Goliath makes a good story because 99 times out of 100, Goliath beats Davids face in. We remember Stalingrad and the American Revolution, and the Afghanistan War(the soviet one) because they're uncommon. We don't remember the wars where the big guy stomps the everloving crap out of the small guy because that's business as usual and not that interesting.

As for making small gangs a viable way to perform objectives in PvP; can't be done. The metagame is too strong in eve. Limit to 20man fleets? I'll bring 5 fleets run by the same fc. Limit to 2 fleets, I'll bring two fleets and now the opponent can't get in. Limit to 1 fleet per alliance, my Alliance is already split into 5 in game alliances for admin purposes, not to mention my blues list. And it goes on.

FW and RvB have each kept small gangs viable in a different way. In FW, there's no real resource you're denying your opponent(which is unfortunate), it's mostly fighting for its own sake (and for RP value). In RvB, its by mutual agreement.

Lowsec's small gangs exist because nobody really lives there (no offense intended, it's just not densely populated).

Think back to the last roam where your FC turned someone away because you had too many people on the roam already. Has it ever happened?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2011-10-15 10:39:57 UTC
Game mechanics can not and should not dictate how people play Eve. Some people like ot fight in small gangs, they shoul dgo and do so. Some people like ot fight in massive superfleets, they should go and do so. That is what makes Eve great, you play the way you want to.

Dont complain because you flew a 10 man gang into a large alliances space and got hit with a 90 strong fleet with ecm, logistics and capitals. This is how one defends ones territory, with superior force.

Dont complain because you took your 90 man fleet with ecm and logistics plust capital support into a small corps space and they hid and would not fight. This is how you avoid being slaughtered.

Basically what I am saying, is play the game your way, get into teh corp or alliance who plays your way and who like to fight people who also play your way.

Very tired of people complaining because the rest of Eve doesnt play how you want them to.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Captain Futur3
unLimited eve
#38 - 2011-10-15 10:58:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Futur3
Rico Minali wrote:
Game mechanics can not and should not dictate how people play Eve. Some people like ot fight in small gangs, they shoul dgo and do so. Some people like ot fight in massive superfleets, they should go and do so. That is what makes Eve great, you play the way you want to.

Dont complain because you flew a 10 man gang into a large alliances space and got hit with a 90 strong fleet with ecm, logistics and capitals. This is how one defends ones territory, with superior force.


Eve is already dictating how we play and fight. You can only do what the game mechanic allows/forces you to. When in counter strike people are able to shoot through (edit: i mean all) walls right from the beginning of the game and then i come and say "hey, thats not a good game mechanic and walls should block projectiles" do you come and say "hey thats not a good idea, people shouldnt forced to play different just because you want to". The same is with friendly fire and no clipping for objects in game. Just because its not possible right now does not mean that eve doesnt forces you to play the way you do. Right now you are forced to NOT use objects as cover.
This is just one example of bad game mechanic.

Also where did i said that i flew with a 10 man gang into a bigger one?
TheBadMan
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2011-10-15 11:29:34 UTC
Eve online is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game featuring a single shard allowing for MASSIVE fleet battles. Its kind of the idea of the game. Some like to fly solo, some like to fly in small gangs, others like to fly in huge fark-off fleets and have battles consisting of literally a thousand people.

10 people should not really be able to prevail over 100. Tactics and numbers count. Accessibility counts. Every noob should be able to join in the fray. With supercap online it left the little guys with no way to play. Its much cheaper to replace subcaps giving more chances to counter attack and get more fights. Look at evoke/friends defending NOL recently, they kept reshipping as they lost ships and held the field/won the day. If it were supercaps online it would be all over after the first fight, if there even was a fight instead of a mexican standoff.

TLDR: eve is a MMO that has massive fights because thats the idea. Supercaps online begone, bring back the biff.
L Salander
All Web Investigations
#40 - 2011-10-15 12:04:13 UTC
More numbers = more better.

Not just in eve online but in other games and even real conflicts, shockingly enough
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