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Lasers. Names. Changes. Please read before reaching for your weapons.

First post
Author
Murashu
Dead and Delirious
Brotherhood of Spacers
#281 - 2012-08-29 16:16:41 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

We did have some meetings internally and we are unwilling to move forward with any mass renaming until we have a naming convention that is solid and we can apply to everything. This is not something we want to rush, it is something we want to talk about a lot and get right. To be honest we will never be able to come up with something that makes everyone happy, but again we need to be confident in it ourselves, it needs to be robust enough to be expanded upon when we add new stuff, and it needs to get to all modules and not be started and forgotten about after touching only a fraction of the modules.

So for now, only a few small changes to be made. :)

That is great news. Please focus more on creating a naming convention that makes sense the first time (or in this case 2nd or 3rd try) and I believe you will end up with happier players.
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2012-08-29 16:21:06 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:

So for now, only a few small changes to be made.


Is it possible to get the meta number shown in the corner of item icons, in a similar way T2 and Faction appear?
If so, soon?
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#283 - 2012-08-29 16:42:01 UTC
As long as we can keep the medium term away from small turrets, the rest of the naming stuff can wait, that should be solved at least because it is confusing.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#284 - 2012-08-29 20:25:47 UTC
I think it would be really nice if all items could get the meta level in the corner like we have with faction/T2/officer/deadspace/storyline. Might be possible to use one of the other corners for it?

Not sure if this would look good with the meta 10+ though... or even having multiple corners with info.

I do hope we will never get watts or something boring like that for module names though... I enjoy the variety in names for my projectiles, and I don't want to loose that flavor when I start flying with lasers again either. As they are now I agree that is is impossible to discern what you want for your ship unless you've learned them by heart.

People will always dislike change so even with the negative feedback you get from some people I hope you keep on improving these things!
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#285 - 2012-08-30 19:18:03 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
[quote=Sudelle]
We did have some meetings internally and we are unwilling to move forward with any mass renaming until we have a naming convention that is solid and we can apply to everything.


Still with the "apply to everything" bit. This is bad. Keep weapons, at least, tied to racial properties. Eve is cool in part because it's otherworldy. Keep that otherworldy in and don't homogenize weapons. I want Amarr people to be ashamed for fitting clunky, mechanical, jury-rigged guns to their ships. I want to feel in-character pride for my races clear technological refinement and superiority.

It would not be hard to do this racially; either with a number designation, a per-race naming scheme, or a UI solution that leaves you free to name them anything you want. Just don't flatten the racial qualities of racial weapon types. There's been a lot of great, Amarr-specific suggestions in this thread. I assume this means that this general idea is widely shared even though it's only been stated explicity a couple times. So posters, please comment on if you want racial differentiation or not. If a majority want the flat system, I'll stop complaining.
Sudelle
Tir Asleen
#286 - 2012-08-30 22:07:36 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
So posters, please comment on if you want racial differentiation or not. If a majority want the flat system, I'll stop complaining.


I don't want to go into too much of what was already said, so I'll just answer your request for comment.

Yes I would prefer racial differentiation in meta naming instead of a flat across the board naming convention applied to everything.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#287 - 2012-08-31 00:00:39 UTC
While a cross weapon naming convention may seem like a good idea, take a lesson from the Universal Inventory.

You are on the wrong path.

It waters down the game and makes it less interesting. One company may make the GSCF-1 and the GSCF-2 but would every company? or would they have different names for their products?

For the purposes of searches and learning, i would prefer that each meta term be secondary to the flavor name of the turret itself. and that flavor name be different for each type of weapon system. but the same across each variation of system

IE this is the current scheme, in meta order 1-4
Blasters. regulated, limited, anode, modal
Railguns. Carbide, Scout, Compressed, prototype

Artillery. Carbine, Gallium, Prototype, scout
Autocannons. Carbine, Gallium, Prototype, Scout

Beam. Afocal, Modal, Anode, Modulated
Pulse. Afocal, Modal, Anode, Modulated
{ Launchers are different in that they also have naming convention nonsense happening, and should be aligned, but not with turret systems.}
With the names, Anode, modal, scout and prototype all being used for different meta levels.

I propose meta 1-4
Hybrids. Limited, Scout, Carbide, Regulated
Projectiles. Prototype, Compressed, Carbine, Gallium
Lasers, Afocal, Modal, Anode, Modulated

Which i know will draw issues form people (like me) who have long since memorized the names of the higher meta weapons.

also an issue i see is the cross use of the words beam, maser and laser on some of the laser weapons. and medium and heavy for the same set of weapons.
Specifically for the laser weapons, I propose, (medium sized weapons)
Heavy Afocal Beam Laser & Heavy Afocal Pulse Laser
as opposed to the current Heavy Afocal Maser I & Heavy Afocal Pulse Maser I

(small sized weapons)
Small Afocal Beam Laser & Small Afocal Pulse Laser
as opposed to the current Medium Afocal Maser I & Medium Afocal Pulse Maser I


For the tier within in the sizes, (lasers, beams) there is actually, several different types that are shared between the small medium and large classes,

the light, the medium, Focused medium, heavy, mega and tachyon.

Small - Gatling, Dual light, medium
Medium - Quad Light, Focused Medium, Heavy
Large - Dual heavy, Mega, Tachyon

I see this as a bigger issue the the cross use of meta names on different turret systems, or modules in general.
It is only the use of the "Light" turret type, (dual light and quad light) that throws off the normal naming convention that is present in all other turrets.

Swap the name and animations of Dual lights and medium (small turrets)
Change the name of "Medium" to "Light"
Change the name of "Focused Medium" to "Medium" (medium turrets)
Problem solved.

I felt that i had to post this again as it seems to have been glossed over before.
Do not over step your reach, sometimes it is ok to take small steps.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Elisa Fir
Luminoctis
#288 - 2012-08-31 06:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Elisa Fir
I arrive a bit late at the discussion, but still would like to add my 0.02 ISK.

To me, there is no 'naming issue' instead, there is a 'sorting issue'. If, in the variations tab, the modules would be sorted by meta level, instead of name, the whole which module is what meta level issue would be solved.

so, simple solution:

sort the modules, in the variations tab, by meta level.

Weed out the wonky stuff (small modules with medium in their name) but other than that, please, keep the flavor names, or rather, keep the flavor naming schemes. If the modules are ordered by meta level, you can always quickly look up which one is which. (and it works regardless of internationalization/translations).
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#289 - 2012-09-02 07:21:07 UTC
Elisa Fir wrote:
so, simple solution:

sort the modules, in the variations tab, by meta level.


Agreed. Whenever looking at a pile of modules and wanting to pull my dreads out I just click "Compare" and then "Meta Level." That tells me everything that I really need to know right there.

Heck we can even make this simpler:

You make a basic Meta 1 item, that's a Thingy 1.0

Meta 2? Thingy 1.2

Meta 3? Thingy 1.5

Meta 4? Thingy 1.7

Got a T2/Meta 5 blueprint? Build yourself a Thingy 2.0

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#290 - 2012-09-03 06:32:57 UTC
good job bricksquad guy. thanks for the input. we are all so very proud of you.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#291 - 2012-09-05 22:21:23 UTC
I like a lot!

...now if only amarr ships could fit their proper sized turret instead of so many having to undersized. ;)
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#292 - 2012-09-06 13:57:06 UTC
Sorry I have not been active in the discussion. I was out off the office at PAX and unable to participate in this discussion. I am back now though.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#293 - 2012-09-12 14:32:58 UTC
and nobody thinks that Strobe would be a better name for rapid firing lasers ? sheesh...

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#294 - 2012-09-12 14:49:54 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
and nobody thinks that Strobe would be a better name for rapid firing lasers ? sheesh...


hahaha don't worry, plenty of time left to beat... I mean convince others of what name is best. As it stands for the winter release I am only renaming two lasers:

Medium Pulse Laser -> Small Focused Pulse Laser
Medium Beam laser -> Small Focused Beam Laser

Along with their named versions as well of course. I am still working to see if I can come up with a naming convention that will work for everything. Until that comes though I will still be working on fixing some smaller issues like these medium lasers that are small or the faction missiles that were being stupid. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#295 - 2012-09-12 14:55:14 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
and nobody thinks that Strobe would be a better name for rapid firing lasers ? sheesh...


hahaha don't worry, plenty of time left to beat... I mean convince others of what name is best. As it stands for the winter release I am only renaming two lasers:

Medium Pulse Laser -> Small Focused Pulse Laser
Medium Beam laser -> Small Focused Beam Laser

Along with their named versions as well of course. I am still working to see if I can come up with a naming convention that will work for everything. Until that comes though I will still be working on fixing some smaller issues like these medium lasers that are small or the faction missiles that were being stupid. :)


Perhaps you could rebalance scorch whilst you're there it adds way too much range and lower the pg too?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#296 - 2012-09-12 16:04:15 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
and nobody thinks that Strobe would be a better name for rapid firing lasers ? sheesh...


hahaha don't worry, plenty of time left to beat... I mean convince others of what name is best. As it stands for the winter release I am only renaming two lasers:

Medium Pulse Laser -> Small Focused Pulse Laser
Medium Beam laser -> Small Focused Beam Laser

Along with their named versions as well of course. I am still working to see if I can come up with a naming convention that will work for everything. Until that comes though I will still be working on fixing some smaller issues like these medium lasers that are small or the faction missiles that were being stupid. :)


Perhaps you could rebalance scorch whilst you're there it adds way too much range and lower the pg too?


Balance is something to poke CCP Fozzie about. You can find him in many places on the forum, like the Ideas section, along with on twitter. :)

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#297 - 2012-09-12 16:36:15 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
and nobody thinks that Strobe would be a better name for rapid firing lasers ? sheesh...


hahaha don't worry, plenty of time left to beat... I mean convince others of what name is best. As it stands for the winter release I am only renaming two lasers:

Medium Pulse Laser -> Small Focused Pulse Laser
Medium Beam laser -> Small Focused Beam Laser

Along with their named versions as well of course. I am still working to see if I can come up with a naming convention that will work for everything. Until that comes though I will still be working on fixing some smaller issues like these medium lasers that are small or the faction missiles that were being stupid. :)


Perhaps you could rebalance scorch whilst you're there it adds way too much range and lower the pg too?


Balance is something to poke CCP Fozzie about. You can find him in many places on the forum, like the Ideas section, along with on twitter. :)


He seems to ignore me very often he makes me cry Cry

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#298 - 2012-09-12 17:30:07 UTC
Not to give you more headaches... :)


Small Gatling Pulse Laser I
Meta 1 Small Gatling Pulse Laser
Meta 2 Small Gatling Pulse Laser
Meta 3 Small Gatling Pulse Laser
Meta 4 Small Gatling Pulse Laser
Small Gatling Pulse Laser II

Meta Names Brainstorming using qualities of "skill" associated:
1- Afocal===== Upgraded ===== Beginner
2- Modal===== Improved ===== Intermediate
3- Anode===== Advanced ===== Advanced
4- Modulated== Expert ======== Expert

The names on the right speak a bit more to me in terms of progression (for general meta-stuff).

Where I am.

Moondancer Starweaver
Port Jackson Shipyards
Minmatar Fleet Associates
#299 - 2012-09-12 20:16:56 UTC
So after reading this thread it might be the wrong crowd to appeal to but as a new player fitting is one of the most confusing unintuitive things in the game, Since the tiericide of ships is eliminating the other huge barrier at least for me.

For instance i didn't know until reading this thread that meta levels were strictly better versions of weapons i had assumed they were side grades like less damage for better fitting room on cpu and power grid. The current schema from a new players perspective looked like this to me.

Limited = Less damage but less power grid cpu usage
Upgraded = More damage for more power grid and cpu usage
Experimental = More damage less stable
Prototype = More stable version of the experimental more damage

for the cases of afterburners replace damage with speed and that's how it seemed to me. So i pretty much have only bought the base versions of stuff until i could use the tech 2 version. Unless i needed or had extra power grid and cpu.

The meta system is extremely convoluted for what seems to a new player no other reason to confuse and frustrate. Anything to make the differences of modules clear would be better. Even knowing there is a hierarchy to them would be immensely appreciated i think by new players.
Rytell Tybat
Doomheim
#300 - 2012-09-12 22:13:32 UTC
Haven't read through the entire thread, but thought I would just add a suggestion. Your naming convention is trying to describe TOO MUCH. It's turned into an item description as opposed to a name. A name with 6 elements in it is not a name, its a sentence. Sorry, don't mean to be harsh.

So, perhaps some of the descriptive words need to be combined (or even dropped) in such a way that makes sense, is relatively interesting (SciFi), and is extremely usable. Possible option might be:


PULSE LASERS (Meta 0)
Gatling Laser S1
Repeating Laser S1
Accelerated Laser S1

Gatling Laser M1
Repeating Laser M1
Accelerated Laser M1

Gatling Laser L1
Repeating Laser L1
Accelerated Laser L1


BEAM LASERS (Meta 0)
Modulated Laser S1
Binary Laser S1
Amplified Laser S1 (Focused would be good, but to avoid confusion with existing convention probably best to avoid it)

Modulated Laser M1
Binary Laser M1
Amplified Laser M1

Modulated Laser L1
Binary Laser L1
Amplified Laser L1

All Meta levels of a single type of Pulse lasers, including Upgraded, Limited, Experimental, Prototype and Tech 2 could be as follows:

Repeating Laser S1
Repeating Laser S Upgraded
Repeating Laser S Limited
Repeating Laser S Experimental
Repeating Laser S Prototype
Repeating Laser S2


Of course the best way to determine what actually works (proper label sequence, naming conventions, etc.) is to do some user testing. Don't need a lot, but a couple rounds of legitimate user testing will go a long way to solving this. Even before you put it on the test server.

Good luck!!