These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pending changes to T2 rig production?

First post
Author
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2011-10-14 20:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Creat Posudol wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Salvage alchemy means production of t2 rigs from LV4s this is obviously a bad idea.


Well, how good of you to include all your reasoning behind it! Roll
Please, explain in a bit more detail what you think the problem would be instead of just dropping 1 line basically saying "bad idea, have a wild guess why".

Let me first make a bit clearer in what role I'd see alchemy and how I'd like to see it implemented (as it apparently wasn't clear enough from my and other previous posts):
The primary source of T2 salvage should be exploration content, which is the only source at the moment (apart from salvaging T2 player wrecks). To achieve that, obviously their drop chance and amount would have to be increased somewhat substantially, as clearly it currently isn't even close to matching the (envisioned) demand. The problem with that is that it's extremely hard to hit the 'sweet spot' where T2 rigs end up being priced 'correctly' (whatever that means for CCP, still waiting to hear from them on this).
Here the alchemy would come into play: if the supply of T2 salvage materials isn't able to meet the demand (either too expensive or just none available at all), prices rise and at some point it becomes cheaper or equally expensive to alchemize them instead. This creates a demand on whatever is required to produce these materials. For reasons of logic and immersion alie I'd suggest their T1-broken-equivalent in non-trivial quantities (10 T1 per single T2 item?), maybe one or two additional T1 salvage mats in smaller quantities and some sort of catalyst or NPC sold 'control item' which is either damaged or (preferably) consumed entirely. Another possibility is to make the control item player produced and find some logical base materials for it. This can later also be used as a simple 'regulator' should the system somehow run out of balance.
Now back again to the situation: T2 parts are unavailable or too expensive so that alchemy becomes viable, this creates a demand on the base (T1) items, causing them to rise in price. Eventually this whole system will hopefully find a balance point with the majority of the T2 items still coming from exploration. If this isn't the case (meaning: majority from L4s) then the adjustment tot he loot chance/amount for T2 wasn't enough. And now for the important bit: The players aren't dependent to wait on CCP to re-adjust them again, but the market still continues to function and T2 items remain available, even though priced a bit higher than they should be!

This system effectively works as a fall-back mechanism for having perfectly balanced loot tables, which is near-impossible to pull off, especially with ever-changing demands! It stops the prices from rising above a certain point and regulates itself.
As long as loot from mag sites is enough or more than enough to satisfy the demand, the system won't have to do much at all...



Wow the astounding amount of happy sunshine, puppies and rainbows this contains.

First, the amount of effort needed to run Mag sites in the first place is not worth the reward. That being said, the much lower effort of the alchemy will invariably further lower the rewards from running Mag sites which turns this into a vicious spiral. Already most explorers tend to skip mag sites because the rewards are just not there.

If:

  • The rewards are there to run Mag sites.

  • Inventing T2 rigs wasn't such a PITA


You would get a lot more explorers running them and thus providing more salvage for T2 production with the increased supply and easier to invent production.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#122 - 2011-10-14 20:38:05 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Creat Posudol wrote:

Well, how good of you to include all your reasoning behind it! Roll
Please, explain in a bit more detail what you think the problem would be instead of just dropping 1 line basically saying "bad idea, have a wild guess why".


Look at the current salvage prices and take an educated guess.

Lv4 + noctics + stuff i salvage is free crowd = every one pvp in t2 rigs.


Not true. The amount of T2 salvage alchemized from T1 salvage, and thus, the increased availability of T2 rigs, would be limited by the conversion rates.

Currently, armor plates sell for just under 200K each and intact armor plates sell for just over 30M each. If the conversion rate for armor plates to intact armor plates is set to 50:1, then the price on intact armor plates would drop signficantly and market availability would increase. Armor plate prices would increase, and market availabilty would drop, but, more players would salvage their missions and the price/availability would soon stabilize again - probably at a lower mark. The net result is greater availability of both T1 and T2 rigs at a lower cost. More fun for all.

But, at a conversion rate of 50:1, you would still not be flooding the market with T2 rigs, even if you converted *all* T1 salvage to T2 salvage, unless salvaging increases by a factor of 50, as well - which is somewhat unlikely, even if you farm L4s 23/7, and would not be sustainable, anyways, over the long term.

And, note that every T2 rig which is installed in a ship is *permanently* eliminated from the market, since it cannot be removed from a ship, nor can it be reprocessed into T2 salvage - it can only be destroyed. This is the most significant difference between rigs and ships/modules.

In truth, the players who would be negatively impacted by T1->T2 salvage alchemy are mostly null-sec dwellers, who farm player wrecks for T2 salvage - for direct sale in empire, or after converting the salvage to T2 rigs. Under the current game mechanics, this is much more lucrative and easier than running sanctums, L4s in empire, harvesting moon goo, or buiding supercap ships. It only took me 1-1/2 weeks to train up a salvage alt, and I made a quick 0.0 roam for wrecks. Sure, I eventually got popped (and podded), but not before I had salvaged over 20 intact armor plates, 5 capacitor consoles, and other goodies totalling up to just under 800M ISK. In exchange, I lost a cheap salvage dessie, a set of +1 implants and a no-cost medical clone - and got yelled at in local for "stealing" salvage. Do the math. :)
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2011-10-15 02:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Sizeof Void wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Creat Posudol wrote:

Well, how good of you to include all your reasoning behind it! Roll
Please, explain in a bit more detail what you think the problem would be instead of just dropping 1 line basically saying "bad idea, have a wild guess why".


Look at the current salvage prices and take an educated guess.

Lv4 + noctics + stuff i salvage is free crowd = every one pvp in t2 rigs.


Not true. The amount of T2 salvage alchemized from T1 salvage, and thus, the increased availability of T2 rigs, would be limited by the conversion rates.

Currently, armor plates sell for just under 200K each and intact armor plates sell for just over 30M each. If the conversion rate for armor plates to intact armor plates is set to 50:1, then the price on intact armor plates would drop signficantly and market availability would increase. Armor plate prices would increase, and market availabilty would drop, but, more players would salvage their missions and the price/availability would soon stabilize again - probably at a lower mark. The net result is greater availability of both T1 and T2 rigs at a lower cost. More fun for all.

But, at a conversion rate of 50:1, you would still not be flooding the market with T2 rigs, even if you converted *all* T1 salvage to T2 salvage, unless salvaging increases by a factor of 50, as well - which is somewhat unlikely, even if you farm L4s 23/7, and would not be sustainable, anyways, over the long term.

And, note that every T2 rig which is installed in a ship is *permanently* eliminated from the market, since it cannot be removed from a ship, nor can it be reprocessed into T2 salvage - it can only be destroyed. This is the most significant difference between rigs and ships/modules.

In truth, the players who would be negatively impacted by T1->T2 salvage alchemy are mostly null-sec dwellers, who farm player wrecks for T2 salvage - for direct sale in empire, or after converting the salvage to T2 rigs. Under the current game mechanics, this is much more lucrative and easier than running sanctums, L4s in empire, harvesting moon goo, or buiding supercap ships. It only took me 1-1/2 weeks to train up a salvage alt, and I made a quick 0.0 roam for wrecks. Sure, I eventually got popped (and podded), but not before I had salvaged over 20 intact armor plates, 5 capacitor consoles, and other goodies totalling up to just under 800M ISK. In exchange, I lost a cheap salvage dessie, a set of +1 implants and a no-cost medical clone - and got yelled at in local for "stealing" salvage. Do the math. :)


So you are happy that you will effectively turn Mag sites into utter poo? I mean c'mon, they are already being mostly ignored in the first place, this will make them even more useless to run.

Your happy sunshine assesment of what you think will go on, is based on a fantacy, not facts. You want some overly complex bit of code to solve the problem, when the simple tweaking of some numbers in a table will do far more, than your overenginered featurecreep gobbledygook. If tweaking the numbers isn't enough to get people running mag sites enough, then maybe I could see putting in salvage alchemy, but at least lets make Mag sites worth running first, to see if that will get the numbers of T2 rigs produced up.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#124 - 2011-10-15 02:46:27 UTC
+1 for changing T2 rigs "base maximum run" from 1 to 10 during the invention process, which would make them a lot cheaper to invent.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#125 - 2011-10-15 04:19:12 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:

So you are happy that you will effectively turn Mag sites into utter poo? I mean c'mon, they are already being mostly ignored in the first place, this will make them even more useless to run.

Your happy sunshine assesment of what you think will go on, is based on a fantacy, not facts. You want some overly complex bit of code to solve the problem, when the simple tweaking of some numbers in a table will do far more, than your overenginered featurecreep gobbledygook. If tweaking the numbers isn't enough to get people running mag sites enough, then maybe I could see putting in salvage alchemy, but at least lets make Mag sites worth running first, to see if that will get the numbers of T2 rigs produced up.

As you say, Mag sites are already "useless to run". And I agree. Mag and Grav sites need to be completely reworked, and Exploration, overall, needs a major - not minor - design overhaul to make it more engaging.

But, I suppose that we could just ask CCP to also add Arkanor, Bistot and Crokite asteroids to high-sec Grav sites, too, so that they would be more rewarding to run. Right?

No, I didn't think so. Anyways, fixing Exploration is a different subject from fixing T2 rig production.

The T1->T2 salvage alchemy solution I suggested in an earlier post is very simple, code-wise, since it is based on making minor additions to the existing ore/alloy refining system, to support the conversion of salvage. Assuming a worse-case scenario, in which the EVE source code is a complete mess, the code changes and database table additions should take no more than 1-2 programmer weeks, including testing & debugging. This would allow plenty of time for playtesting, feedback, and conversion rate tweaking on Singularity, prior to the Winter Expansion release.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#126 - 2011-10-15 04:27:34 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
+1 for changing T2 rigs "base maximum run" from 1 to 10 during the invention process, which would make them a lot cheaper to invent.

+1 A very good point. T2 rig BPC prices are ridiculous, as well.

Hey, wait a minute! I make up to 50M ISK per each Large Cargohold Optimization II BPC which I sell via auction contracts. Am I shooting myself in the foot here?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2011-10-15 06:37:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Sizeof Void wrote:
As you say, Mag sites are already "useless to run". And I agree. Mag and Grav sites need to be completely reworked, and Exploration, overall, needs a major - not minor - design overhaul to make it more engaging.


We are not talking about Grav sites here, and exploration in general is fine. The relative values of running them is not, but that is a little out of the purview of this discussion.

Quote:
But, I suppose that we could just ask CCP to also add Arkanor, Bistot and Crokite asteroids to high-sec Grav sites, too, so that they would be more rewarding to run. Right?


We are not talking about Grav sites. If you want to bug a DEV about putting ABCs in highsec grav sites go make a F&I post, don't try to discuss it in here.

We are, however, Talking about trying to increase the prevalence of T2 rigs on the market and use of by the player base. Salvage alchemy will wreck any remaining residual value in running Mag sites, when a lot of people don't find enough value in running mag sites already. If people found more value in running Mag sites through a higher prevalence for intact salvage, more people would run them, increasing supply. Increasing supply of intact salvage will lower their value, leading to lower prices on T2 rigs, making them more affordable, and therefore more prevalent in ships.

Quote:
No, I didn't think so. Anyways, fixing Exploration is a different subject from fixing T2 rig production.


Where should most of the intact components for T2 rigs come from? Exploration sites. Fixing Mag sites will help fix T2 rig production, the two are related, and relevant. Also changing the number of successful runs per invented BPC from one, to ten, will help too. (Dang it CCP, you have two people here who can't see eye to eye on salvage alchemy, but we agree on increasing the run size on a successful invention job. HINT...HINT)

Quote:
The T1->T2 salvage alchemy solution I suggested in an earlier post is very simple, code-wise, since it is based on making minor additions to the existing ore/alloy refining system, to support the conversion of salvage. Assuming a worse-case scenario, in which the EVE source code is a complete mess, the code changes and database table additions should take no more than 1-2 programmer weeks, including testing & debugging. This would allow plenty of time for playtesting, feedback, and conversion rate tweaking on Singularity, prior to the Winter Expansion release.


Why do that, when all you have to do is change some numbers in a database that is already in the game?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#128 - 2011-10-15 08:47:42 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:

We are not talking about Grav sites here, and exploration in general is fine. The relative values of running them is not, but that is a little out of the purview of this discussion.

We are not talking about Grav sites. If you want to bug a DEV about putting ABCs in highsec grav sites go make a F&I post, don't try to discuss it in here.

Hmm... I guess I failed in my oblique attempt to point out the neither Grav sites nor Mag sites belong in this discussion.

Falin Whalen wrote:

Where should most of the intact components for T2 rigs come from?

Most of the T2 salvage currently comes from T2 ship wrecks and faction NPC ship wrecks. This works from a game immersion POV. But, as is evident from the T2 rig market, the amount of T2 salvage from these sources has proven to be too limited.

Adding the ability to fix/repair/reprocess broken (T1) salvage into working (T2) salvage also works, from a game immersion POV, esp. since this sort of recycling is done all of the time in RL. It would increase the availabilty of T2 salvage, and thus would increase the availability of T2 rigs, at a lower cost. I don't think that anyone argues this point (T2 rig market crashes and "everyone fitting T2 rigs in their ships" are different arguments).

Mag sites are a broken game mechanic. Using one broken game mechanic to attempt to fix another broken game mechanic is a bad idea. Every time this sort of thing is tried, in practice, it invariably fails.

Falin Whalen wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
The T1->T2 salvage alchemy solution I suggested in an earlier post is very simple, code-wise, since it is based on making minor additions to the existing ore/alloy refining system, to support the conversion of salvage.

Why do that, when all you have to do is change some numbers in a database that is already in the game?

First, because increasing drop rates (from Mag sites or wrecks) may help fix the T2 rig production problem, but it exacerbates a bigger problem (the ISK faucet issue). The alchemy solution addresses both problems.

Second, the ore/alloy refining system is also already in the game. I made a worse-case guesstimate of 1-2 programmer weeks to modify the code; but, in fact, if the EVE Online source code is relatively clean, then the proposed code changes would probably take less than a week, by a competent programmer.

Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#129 - 2011-10-15 09:58:30 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:

Where should most of the intact components for T2 rigs come from? Exploration sites. Fixing Mag sites will help fix T2 rig production, the two are related, and relevant.
No, changing mag sites as such won't do a thing, they can never handle the volume and having them as main source that doesn't make any sense fluff wise.

If you really want to have better mag sites then CCP should introduce T1 & T2 Capital rigs and have them only drop in mag sites. This gives them something unique and valuable.

Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#130 - 2011-10-15 10:09:01 UTC
Ender Sai wrote:
When he activate a wreck the probabilities for each type of salvage are skewed in favor of the script.


+1 to this idea
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#131 - 2011-10-15 10:22:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Anya Ohaya
CCP Fear wrote:
And then I always forget to get that other script/crystal. It is also just a bit convulated.


True, but digging through your assets and containers for that module you know you have in some container in some station is just part of Eve's complexity isn't it?

I wouldn't like it if scripts were required for salvaging - an extra step over just fitting a t1 salvager - but as an option they can hardly hurt. Scripting mining suffers a bit from being all or nothing - if you fit t2 strips you must use crystals and you must mine that type of 'roid, and only that type of 'roid.
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#132 - 2011-10-15 10:35:49 UTC
CCP Fear wrote:

Make it more like mining. So that you aren't getting random loot here, but that you are in control (based on market needs) that you go and get Salvage X, which you know comes from Wreck Y.

I think that is more Sand-boxy than how it is currently.


Mission choice is complex. You're balancing rewards from bounties, LP standing gains, loot and salvage against difficulty/time and location. I doubt anyone targets missions for the salvage - which probably contributes to oversupply of some items.

The exception is people who do salvage for its own sake - but the ninja salvager has just about been nerfed to death over the last two years.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#133 - 2011-10-15 13:11:46 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Look at the current salvage prices and take an educated guess.

Lv4 + noctics + stuff i salvage is free crowd = every one pvp in t2 rigs.

You clearly either couldn't be bothered to read what I wrote or you didn't understand it. Also take a look at Sizeof Void's reply here for a very nice and well written example of why you are just wrong with such a general statement.
Of course those BPs have to be created with care, but that goes for every measure. You can also completely crash the prices by increasing drop rates too much and the like, then also everyone would fly in PVP with T2 rigs.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#134 - 2011-10-15 14:43:40 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:

First, because increasing drop rates (from Mag sites or wrecks) may help fix the T2 rig production problem, but it exacerbates a bigger problem (the ISK faucet issue). The alchemy solution addresses both problems.


Loot drops are not ISK faucets. ISK faucets are things like rat bounties & mission rewards which flow from the NPC's infinite bank account into your bank account. So unless there is a NPC out there willing to pay ISK for loot drops, they're not an ISK faucet.

In terms of keeping inflation down - loot drops are preferred over ISK payments. Players paying other players for loot is a tiny ISK sink due to the broker fees & sales tax.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2011-10-15 16:32:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Sizeof Void wrote:
Hmm... I guess I failed in my oblique attempt to point out the neither Grav sites nor Mag sites belong in this discussion.


You mad I called your strawman, a strawman?

Quote:

Most of the T2 salvage currently comes from T2 ship wrecks and faction NPC ship wrecks. This works from a game immersion POV. But, as is evident from the T2 rig market, the amount of T2 salvage from these sources has proven to be too limited.


So close, you are almost there. Let me help. Intact salvage also drop from Mag sites. Your argument that Mag sites shouldn't be in this discussion suddenly goes POOF. If all three sources are not enough something has to be bumped up somewhere. Since we can't kill more T2 ships, and we certainly don't want to increase the spawn rate of faction NPCs, that leaves Mag sites. Suddenly Mag sites become worth doing, and more intact salvage gets on the market. Oops. I solved the lack of materiel problem in T2 rig production with an hour of a DEVs time changing some numbers in a database, and increased the gameplay enjoyment for some feature already in game.

Quote:

Adding the ability to fix/repair/reprocess broken (T1) salvage into working (T2) salvage also works, from a game immersion POV, esp. since this sort of recycling is done all of the time in RL. It would increase the availabilty of T2 salvage, and thus would increase the availability of T2 rigs, at a lower cost. I don't think that anyone argues this point (T2 rig market crashes and "everyone fitting T2 rigs in their ships" are different arguments).


Not arguing that point, I'm just saying it is unnecessary at this time.

Quote:

Mag sites are a broken game mechanic. Using one broken game mechanic to attempt to fix another broken game mechanic is a bad idea. Every time this sort of thing is tried, in practice, it invariably fails.


They are broken because the loot tables make it almost not worth running. If T2 salvage is in them, but drop so rarely that people don't even bother, that is broken. If you fix one broken game mechanic, suddenly several broken game mechanics that rely on it get better too.

Quote:

First, because increasing drop rates (from Mag sites or wrecks) may help fix the T2 rig production problem, but it exacerbates a bigger problem (the ISK faucet issue). The alchemy solution addresses both problems.


And I suppose you think mining is the biggest isk faucet ever?

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-10-15 16:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Quote:

Second, the ore/alloy refining system is also already in the game. I made a worse-case guesstimate of 1-2 programmer weeks to modify the code; but, in fact, if the EVE Online source code is relatively clean, then the proposed code changes would probably take less than a week, by a competent programmer.



My solution takes 5-10 programing hours to change some numbers in a database, with no development of code that has to be bug tested.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2011-10-15 16:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Sizeof Void wrote:
Most of the T2 salvage currently comes from T2 ship wrecks and faction NPC ship wrecks. This works from a game immersion POV. But, as is evident from the T2 rig market, the amount of T2 salvage from these sources has proven to be too limited... increasing drop rates (from Mag sites or wrecks) may help fix the T2 rig production problem...


You are halfway there. If it wasn't for those silly trees, you could see the forrest.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#138 - 2011-10-15 17:48:23 UTC
Efraya wrote:
Lutz Major wrote:
contemplative: I remember, having read something a while ago about improving the materials needed.
Like melting three broken something into one intact something.

Neutral: if CCP tinkers anything, prepare for a decrease in profits - everyone will try it in the beginning.


I think lutz has it, melting down t1 salvage into t2 salvage.

Thereby increasing the amount of t2 salvage, decreasing the price if t2 rigs.



Now THAT would be an excellent choice.
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#139 - 2011-10-15 21:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Creat Posudol
Falin Whalen wrote:
My solution takes 5-10 programing hours to change some numbers in a database, with no development of code that has to be bug tested.


While that may be true, it is also incredibly short-sighted. First of all even if the balance attempt is successful and just spot on, leading to perfectly priced T2 rigs this balance will fade over time, since demand changes. What if mag sites just aren't enough to supply all those required materials? There is no mechanism in place ensuring the longer-term balance of the supply. With alchemy there would at least be a self-regulating mechanism where it isn't required that someone at CCP checks in with the loot tables every couple of months to compensate for the changes in demand. You can't just run twice as many mag sites if the demand is for T2 salvage becomes high again, since there have to be there to find in the first place!

I think Shin Dari got the gist of it here:
Shin Dari wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:

Where should most of the intact components for T2 rigs come from? Exploration sites. Fixing Mag sites will help fix T2 rig production, the two are related, and relevant.
No, changing mag sites as such won't do a thing, they can never handle the volume and having them as main source that doesn't make any sense fluff wise.

While I disagree that fixing mag sites isn't gonna help at all, I do agree that it isn't enough on it's own. There aren't that many sites spawned at any given time, even at off-hours (say 5:00 eve time) you can scan 3-4 low-sec constellations (not systems) and find maybe one or two. I don't know how common they are in 0.0 but empire-space also needs to get some of the benefits. Obviously dropping massive amounts of T2 salvage in high-sec mag sites is also not a solution, but the amounts that I suspect would be needed to be dropped in high- and low-sec mag sites alone to satisfy the demand (in other words: the yet-undisclosed numbers of T2 rigs sold that CCP wants to reach) is so ridiculously high that they just can't reasonably do this.

There needs to be some additional source for them, or the sites themselves have to be made much more common in addition to increasing the average T2 salvage material amount per site.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2011-10-15 22:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
"All right, there's a thousand things that have to happen in order. We are on number eight. You're talking about number six hundred and ninety-two. " Jim Lovell

First lets see if a larger prevalence of T2 rigs on the market, will drive demand for them. You are trying to build a bridge over a river we have not arrived at yet, and which may even be a small trickle when we do. Let's build that bridge if and when we need to. If the increased drops from Mag sites still don't meet demand, then I can see alchemy coming in, but we aren't even there yet. Your concern is duly noted.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka