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Lvl 4's entry: What (battle)ship to choose?
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Zanza Mechonis
What is tax
#1 - 2012-09-06 22:28:47 UTC
It's exactly as the title says. I'd mostly be missioning for Amarr, primarily because I got great standings with them already. The choice of battleships I have would be Apoc, Abaddon, or Raven. I had a raven (Grabbed quick fit off of battleclinic) back in gallente space, but it's DPS and tank were horrendous, even worse than my Drake's, and I sold it again. I can't use hybrids, and I dislike the look of the Armageddon. ...Which pretty much leaves those three left.
My drone skills would be okay; Drones V, Drone Interfacing V, and room for Drone Durability to train along with various others. I'd have to train for the Large Energy turrets, and there's a few other tanking skills I'd have to train, but I believe I'm ready to safely proceed into the Battleship carebear stage :P (later maybe proceed into a Nightmare as well)

One of the alternatives, however, would be a Tengu or a Legion. Being able to use T2 launchers, and liking both of the ships' looks, I'd be willing to consider this greatly, although the cost puts me off for now. I'd prefer to only choose them if they will be effective and will have a higher survivability than battleships, but at this very moment, not greatly preferred. (I AM very interested in the Legion; during the time it takes to skill for it I might earn enough money to afford it, or not. Either way, if it's worth it that much, I wouldn't hesitate to go for it.)

Another alternative I imagined would be Heavy Assault Ships. Before I get trolling or flaming about this (Happened before), can anyone tell me WHY these generally are chosen for PvP? I just personally don't see how they would be less effective in PvE... (Main preferred ships for this are the T2 versions of a Prophecy, the Nighthawk, or a Zealot. Once again though, I have not looked into these much, and if I'm wrong, which I assume I am, please tell me why :P)

I'd generally prefer an Amarrian ship, mainly because I like armor tanks a bit more and because of much cheaper ammo costs, at least, as long as I'd use T1 ^^

"On the internet you can be anything you want... It's strange that many people choose to be stupid."
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-09-06 23:51:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
that's a lot of ground to cover there...

ok first and foremost, if you really want to concentrate on running missions to earn ISK, you should understand that lvl4s are all about applying DPS. to do this you not only need good paper dps but also range, because each second you spend not shooting is a second you are not earning money. a nightmare for example can easily put 1100dps out to 50kn and still deals about 700dps at 90km. the tengu is a good mission ship because its missile range goes up to beyond 100km and it can also deal ~760dps. the legion as well as all HACs cannot match the raw DPS and/or the range of a good mission ship so running lvl4s in them is less effective. if you're ok with that, train for whatever you like. hell, you can do most lvl4s in an assault frigate.

as for the ship choices you named, i would recommend an apocalypse for starters. if your drone skills are really good, you can also try the dominix with sentry drones and a shield tank. the abaddon is said to have some issues with its capacitor, so you should only fly it if you have excellent support skills and amarr BS V. tengus are great at running missions except against sanshas and blood raiders, so if you want to use one, you should probably move somewhere else.

edit: ships you may also consider are the maelstrom and machariel. if you really want to commit to lasers, i would advise you to go apocalypse into nightmare while working primarily on your gunnery skills.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2012-09-07 01:45:33 UTC
Concur. Apoc is probably your best bet for running in Amarr space.

As a side note, the Nighthawk is the T2 version of the Ferox. And it's actually rather nice, though somewhat overshadowed by the Tengu.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-09-07 02:56:03 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
...the abaddon is said to have some issues with its capacitor, so you should only fly it if you have excellent support skills and amarr BS V...

Pardon my ignorance but why amarr BS V? The supports I understand, but not sure what maxing the amarr BS skill would really add to make the abaddon shine over the apoc.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2012-09-07 05:06:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
...the abaddon is said to have some issues with its capacitor, so you should only fly it if you have excellent support skills and amarr BS V...

Pardon my ignorance but why amarr BS V? The supports I understand, but not sure what maxing the amarr BS skill would really add to make the abaddon shine over the apoc.


Shrug. Some battleships just don't really work right without max skills, and the Abaddon is in that category. Because it faces such cap issues (and yes, they are actually very real) getting the most out of every shot fired and every rep cycle is actually quite important. The damage bonus gives you that last bit of punch per cap and the resist bonus means you have to cycle the rep that much less often.

This is in contrast to the Apoc, which already has a relatively strong capacitor. The range bonus is really, really nice, but the last bit of optimal is less important than a pure damage bonus. The cap use bonus simply takes an already friendly ship and makes it quite easy to fly.

For the sake of completeness, the Armageddon also really likes max skills. RoF bonuses are plain better than pure damage bonuses, and the cap use bonus allows you to actually use it without crapping out in the first few minutes of a fight. Additionally, the Armageddon absolutely requires good drone skills to supplement the other supports in order to compete in missions with the Apoc.

And for the sake of utter completeness, I'll add that the Paladin is in the same boat as the Absolution in needing its secondary skill (Marauders) at 5 to really make it shine because that's where the damage bonus lives. The Nightmare can actually get by with Amarr/Caldari battleship skills at 4/4 (though obviously higher is better and a full-support 5/5 Nightmare is a thing of beauty).
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-09-07 07:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Boudacca Sangrere
If you have flown the raven I assume missile and shield skills. That being said, why not upgrade to the CNR (as long as you stay high sec)? Tank is quite good, dps with the extra launcher also. Even with lowish skills ( I started flying it with about 5,5 mil SP) level 4 missions have been a breeze. Your drone skills certainly help.

From what I hear Legion does not excell as a L4 mission runner (YMMV).
Sturmwolke
#7 - 2012-09-07 10:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Zanza Mechonis wrote:
Another alternative I imagined would be Heavy Assault Ships. Before I get trolling or flaming about this (Happened before), can anyone tell me WHY these generally are chosen for PvP? I just personally don't see how they would be less effective in PvE... (Main preferred ships for this are the T2 versions of a Prophecy, the Nighthawk, or a Zealot. Once again though, I have not looked into these much, and if I'm wrong, which I assume I am, please tell me why :P)

The question you should be asking is what makes the perfect (L4) missioning ship. The factors that go into that :
- raw paper dps (500-1000dps or higher)
- damage projection ability (at least a 50-60km sphere envelope)
- effective dps (at least 500 dps, after accounting for NPC range, sig, speed and EW)
- sustained active local tank ability (at least 200-250dps per specific resist profile)
- burst active local tank ability (at least 500 dps or more per specific resist profile)
- able to kill NPC frigates/elite frigates

Thats the core for L4 missioning. There's a number of other factors that I won't go into.

So take a HAC, then examine it's viability. In many cases, it will fail one or two or more of the core factors. Certain HACs (like the Ishtar) are more viable than others, it'll do the job, but there's always a compromise in some form (like isk/hr, handling difficulty etc.).

Field (hard to remember? think "Attack") command ships (Absolution/Astarte/Sleipnir/Nighthawk) are able to meet all the minimums for dps/tank. Again, certain field command ships stand out from the rest of the pack when it comes to L4 missioning - the leader being obviously the Nighthawk. However, there are still better ships out there that meet or exceeds those minimums. Thats where you go into the realm of T3s cruisers, pirate BSes and marauders.
Zanza Mechonis
What is tax
#8 - 2012-09-07 11:39:55 UTC
Boudacca Sangrere wrote:
If you have flown the raven I assume missile and shield skills. That being said, why not upgrade to the CNR (as long as you stay high sec)? Tank is quite good, dps with the extra launcher also. Even with lowish skills ( I started flying it with about 5,5 mil SP) level 4 missions have been a breeze. Your drone skills certainly help.

From what I hear Legion does not excell as a L4 mission runner (YMMV).


I'd considered the CNR, but there's a few factors against it; It's more costly than a standard T1 BS, shield tanks are weakest against Sansha's and blood raiders, and it's DPS was disappointing on a standard raven; EFT showed me upgrading to navy issue only didn't help that much at all.

(Again, my preference is against it too. Armor tanks are something I really like, and amarrian ships are cool... :P)

"On the internet you can be anything you want... It's strange that many people choose to be stupid."
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-09-07 11:54:39 UTC
tank is usually not an issue. if you fly 3x hardeners, 1x XL booster + cap booster, you can tank pretty much any mission, no matter if you fly shield or armor. personally, i also dislike the raven and CNR but mainly because they are so incredibly ugly. also notice that the nightmare is shield tanked.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zanza Mechonis
What is tax
#10 - 2012-09-07 13:35:42 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
tank is usually not an issue. if you fly 3x hardeners, 1x XL booster + cap booster, you can tank pretty much any mission, no matter if you fly shield or armor. personally, i also dislike the raven and CNR but mainly because they are so incredibly ugly. also notice that the nightmare is shield tanked.


Yeah, I noticed that about the Nightmare. It's pretty much my major idea of follow up after the initial start, when I've got all skills up to par perfectly and got a better general idea of the different missions and how much I need for it. By the time where I'm certain I can go into a nightmare, I'll also have various other things much higher, so the cost won't be an issue anymore either, it's just not something I'd see myself using within a month or two, three.

"On the internet you can be anything you want... It's strange that many people choose to be stupid."
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-09-07 14:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Zanza Mechonis wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
tank is usually not an issue. if you fly 3x hardeners, 1x XL booster + cap booster, you can tank pretty much any mission, no matter if you fly shield or armor. personally, i also dislike the raven and CNR but mainly because they are so incredibly ugly. also notice that the nightmare is shield tanked.


Yeah, I noticed that about the Nightmare. It's pretty much my major idea of follow up after the initial start, when I've got all skills up to par perfectly and got a better general idea of the different missions and how much I need for it. By the time where I'm certain I can go into a nightmare, I'll also have various other things much higher, so the cost won't be an issue anymore either, it's just not something I'd see myself using within a month or two, three.

when i was a young whippersnapper i went straight from drake into nightmare. it went over pretty well (aside from the fact that i used gyros instead of heat sinks for the first week or so Oops). from my experience, this is the skillset you should aim for before jumping into it:
- amarr and caldari BS 4
- advanced weapon upgrades 4
- capacitor skills 4 or 5
- T2 shield tank with medium cap booster
- large energy turret 4 (faction tachs are only ~80mil and you only need 4)
- gunnery support skills at 4
- Hobgoblin II, drone interfacing 3 or 4

this should get you through any lvl4 as long as you don't screw up. if you cut a corner here and there, you might get by but i'd advise to be patient.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#12 - 2012-09-07 17:25:57 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
whippersnapper i went straight from drake into nightmare. it went over pretty well (aside from the fact that i used gyros instead of heat sinks for the first week or so Oops).


That is ******* awesome.

Also, solid advice. I spent a few years in an active Nighthawk before buckling down into a Machariel and finally a Nightmare (for EM/therm only) and tried the other Amarr BSs on the way. The Nightmare really is in a league of its own and an underskilled Abaddon really is crap.
barbara1234
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-09-09 09:48:35 UTC
Don't use a Legion for L4's although its tank and manoeuvrability are nice its range even when rigged and running dual tracking computers with scorch blows, although it is a fun ship to fly and like others have said on these forums a beast for blitzing L2-3's for standings grindage.

Apoc is a good solid boat, use that until you get T2 large lasers, then jump into a Nightmare or Navy Apoc or Geddon. The Navy Geddon is a sweet gank boat as its flight of sentries make short work of tracking disrupting rats (sansha blockade).

A Tengu is a good back up boat to have around for those guristas and angel missions that ruin your nice EM/therm dps.
DSin3
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-09-10 00:58:47 UTC
If you have the skills and the isk get a Nightmare. just use faction beams till you've trained for T2. Otherwise use an Apoc, it fits easier than an abbadon. It helps if you have T2 pulses so you can use scorch on the apoc. I have one sitting around near amarr you could try out... for a security deposit of course P evemail me if you interested.
Tengu is not great in amarr space and legion is not a great lvl4 boat.
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#15 - 2012-09-11 18:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Korgan Nailo
Daniel Plain wrote:

- T2 shield tank with medium cap booster

Are you sure about the medium cap?

I ended up going the extra mile for a Gist C, and that pretty much allowed me to get rid of any cap boosters. The difference between a T2 XL booster and a Gist C XL booster is ridiculous. Not that much tank wise, but omg cap wise.


Now, back to the OP.

Great advice on this thread so far. Allow me my two cents. =)

Some missions are close range, some are long range. Even in a Nightmare, I find myself going with Pulses or Tachyons. Some missions like Angel Extravaganza (damn you Angel Cartel) or Damsel in Distress have a lot of close range ships, and Pulses will do the trick much better than Tachyons. Only catch is: you must be able to use Scorch.

The Apoc will do wonders for you. Please please, shield tank it.

Abaddon: no. Just don't. Armor tanking is for fleets. With the recent Reactive Active Hardener things got better, but without an XL Armor Repairer, armor simply can't stand against shields. Abaddons are wonderful ships, but the way CCP developed lasers, if you're not flying a ship with cap bonuses (reducing what lasers consume or the amount of turrets) you're doomed.

Another thing, don't go cheap on tanking. Most people will say "nah..." but let me give you an example: Worlds Collide. Sometimes, you jump into the third pocket and everything is fine, you aggro just one group, melt it down, moves to the next, so on and so fourth. Occasionally though, you jump in and have full pocket aggro. Without 500-600 tanked DPS, you're done.

I would NOT fly a Nightmare until you can get yourself a Gist C XL at least.

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Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-09-11 19:10:20 UTC
Quote:
the tengu is a good mission ship because its missile range goes up to beyond 100km and it can also deal ~760dps


The tengu is a mediocore mission ship at best because it max's out well under 800 DPS.

It has the advantage of being excellent at hitting smaller targets, but in missions a Mach or NM will be able to BBQ almost any frig before it gets inside your tracking.

If you fly Amarr/Caldari NM is the best choice and if you fly Mimatar/Gallente Machariel is the best choice. So IMHO you should fly a ship that skilling into will also skill you towards that NM.

Smaller ships are fun to fly in level 4's for the challenge and to break monotony, but NM/Mach are the kings. And I find that until you max out your skills, its not monotonous because you are constantly trying to improve your time.
barbara1234
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-09-11 19:40:44 UTC
Korgan Nailo wrote:

I would NOT fly a Nightmare until you can get yourself a Gist C XL at least.


Try this for size, works wonders, at least until ASB's get nerfed.

[Nightmare, PvE Dual ASB]
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
100MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Responsive Auto-Targeting System I
[empty high slot]

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Swap out AB and hardeners depending on mission type. It's nice but may not be viable for too long.
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#18 - 2012-09-11 20:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Toroup
I alternate between a CNR and Navy Issued Scorpion for Level 4s. I've only had to warp out like three times (once was because I loaded the wrong ammo). The nice thing about both the CNR and Scorpion is that you can switch out damage type and stack damage resistance to be mission specific. The Scorpion is a little slower than the CNR because of the lower DPS but has a massive tank.

Really I could do level 4s with either exclusively, I just switch out because I get bored.

Here are my builds (both cap stable because I'm paranoid - just waiting for ASBs to get nerfed)


[Scorpion Navy Issue, Active Tank]

Damage Control II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, True Sanshas Multifrequency L

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Ogre I x3



[Raven Navy Issue, Raven - Active Tank]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Damage Control II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gistum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field
Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field
Caldari Navy EM Ward Field

Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Caldari Navy Cruise Missile Launcher, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, True Sanshas Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Ogre I x3
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-09-11 23:52:40 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Quote:
the tengu is a good mission ship because its missile range goes up to beyond 100km and it can also deal ~760dps


The tengu is a mediocore mission ship at best because it max's out well under 800 DPS.

It has the advantage of being excellent at hitting smaller targets, but in missions a Mach or NM will be able to BBQ almost any frig before it gets inside your tracking.

If you fly Amarr/Caldari NM is the best choice and if you fly Mimatar/Gallente Machariel is the best choice. So IMHO you should fly a ship that skilling into will also skill you towards that NM.

Smaller ships are fun to fly in level 4's for the challenge and to break monotony, but NM/Mach are the kings. And I find that until you max out your skills, its not monotonous because you are constantly trying to improve your time.


i have to disagree. i fly both nightmare and tengu and in spite of having much lower paper dps, the tengu has similar if not better completion times (in the appropriate missions ofc.)
the problem with the nightmare is not only that it's slow. it also has horrible align times and in many missions where you only need to snipe stuff, the tengu beats it hands down. even in the missions where you have to kill lots of targets, i have found that the practical applied damage of the tengu is almost equal to the nightmare when there are a lot of cruiser sized targes.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Korgan Nailo
5ER3NITY INC
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#20 - 2012-09-12 14:38:34 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Quote:
the tengu is a good mission ship because its missile range goes up to beyond 100km and it can also deal ~760dps


The tengu is a mediocore mission ship at best because it max's out well under 800 DPS.

It has the advantage of being excellent at hitting smaller targets, but in missions a Mach or NM will be able to BBQ almost any frig before it gets inside your tracking.

If you fly Amarr/Caldari NM is the best choice and if you fly Mimatar/Gallente Machariel is the best choice. So IMHO you should fly a ship that skilling into will also skill you towards that NM.

Smaller ships are fun to fly in level 4's for the challenge and to break monotony, but NM/Mach are the kings. And I find that until you max out your skills, its not monotonous because you are constantly trying to improve your time.


i have to disagree. i fly both nightmare and tengu and in spite of having much lower paper dps, the tengu has similar if not better completion times (in the appropriate missions ofc.)
the problem with the nightmare is not only that it's slow. it also has horrible align times and in many missions where you only need to snipe stuff, the tengu beats it hands down. even in the missions where you have to kill lots of targets, i have found that the practical applied damage of the tengu is almost equal to the nightmare when there are a lot of cruiser sized targes.

Oh I know what you're talking about...

However, a Nightmare PULSE + MWD fit will do wonders for you in those missions. At least, it does for me. =)
Lows: 3xHS, 2xTE
Mids: 2xInvs, 1xGist X booster, 2xCap Rechargers, 1xTC, 1xMWD (Got a Gist A, but before was going with t2 and it work as well)
High: 4xMega Pulse, 1xTractor, 1xAuto Targeting

The only catch is, you must have Scorch o'course.

Today I vary from Pulse to Tachyon fits, and I can't for the good of me make the Tengu win. I've tried... =/

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