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[Winter] Support Cruisers

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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#81 - 2012-09-11 18:12:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
OP comes to mind tracking link bonus would be fine the module might get used outside of incursions then but you would need 6 mids prob on scythe to get tank prop and a couple of spares for tracking links then and add one to meds on exqueror


If we are talking about rebalance, I would actually like to explore other options. Just because the T2 versions have it doesn't mean that we need to keep it and/or mirror it to the T1. I would also like to argue for the demolishing of symmetry that is happening. Why create a armor/shield that is mirrored across the races? I would much rather the logis be more like the ECM where each race has their own unique use.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-09-11 18:27:27 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:


I will one up you:

50% bonus to range of Remote Sensor Booster

Put the Warfare in Information Warfare.


No, we will not un-nerf supercaps in any way <_<

That means no tracking link bonus either!

The ECCM bonus sounds like a good idea however. Would help the effort of lessening the annoyance of ECM in smaller fleets. Or, perhaps a bonus to heat consumption on reppers so they can run heated for a long time.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#83 - 2012-09-11 18:33:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Devereux
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:


I will one up you:

50% bonus to range of Remote Sensor Booster

Put the Warfare in Information Warfare.


No, we will not un-nerf supercaps in any way <_<

That means no tracking link bonus either!

The ECCM bonus sounds like a good idea however. Would help the effort of lessening the annoyance of ECM in smaller fleets. Or, perhaps a bonus to heat consumption on reppers so they can run heated for a long time.


Oh yeah. I forgot that you can't put RSB's on any other ship and get within 40km of a SC. You totally need this change to have T1 cruisers be able to boost from 60km. How silly of me to forget this.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2012-09-11 18:47:40 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:


I will one up you:

50% bonus to range of Remote Sensor Booster

Put the Warfare in Information Warfare.


No, we will not un-nerf supercaps in any way <_<

That means no tracking link bonus either!

The ECCM bonus sounds like a good idea however. Would help the effort of lessening the annoyance of ECM in smaller fleets. Or, perhaps a bonus to heat consumption on reppers so they can run heated for a long time.

If supers are so bad that they cant consider buffing t1 cruisers without it breaking supercaps then maybe supercaps need to be flagged for NO assistance of any kind.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Alara IonStorm
#85 - 2012-09-11 18:58:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie why did you cut the PG for the Scythe and Osprey.

Osprey: Fittings: 425 PWG (-50)
Scythe: Fittings: 330 PWG (-95)

They are hard enough to fit as it is.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#86 - 2012-09-11 19:02:09 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
CCP Fozzie why did you cut the PG for the Scythe and Osprey.

Osprey: Fittings: 425 PWG (-50)
Scythe: Fittings: 330 PWG (-95)

They are hard enough to fit as it is.


That is so you can't fit two LSE II's and all your reps/ETA's.
Alara IonStorm
#87 - 2012-09-11 19:08:35 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
CCP Fozzie why did you cut the PG for the Scythe and Osprey.

Osprey: Fittings: 425 PWG (-50)
Scythe: Fittings: 330 PWG (-95)

They are hard enough to fit as it is.

That is so you can't fit two LSE II's and all your reps/ETA's.

Link to Dev Post please, I could not find where he said that.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-09-11 19:11:41 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:


I will one up you:

50% bonus to range of Remote Sensor Booster

Put the Warfare in Information Warfare.


No, we will not un-nerf supercaps in any way <_<

That means no tracking link bonus either!

The ECCM bonus sounds like a good idea however. Would help the effort of lessening the annoyance of ECM in smaller fleets. Or, perhaps a bonus to heat consumption on reppers so they can run heated for a long time.

If supers are so bad that they cant consider buffing t1 cruisers without it breaking supercaps then maybe supercaps need to be flagged for NO assistance of any kind.


Immunity to Ewar should mean immunity to support ewar as well, then other classes can stop being held back because of the fact they would make supers OP once again.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#89 - 2012-09-11 19:11:59 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
CCP Fozzie why did you cut the PG for the Scythe and Osprey.

Osprey: Fittings: 425 PWG (-50)
Scythe: Fittings: 330 PWG (-95)

They are hard enough to fit as it is.

That is so you can't fit two LSE II's and all your reps/ETA's.

Link to Dev Post please, I could not find where he said that.


He didn't. That is what I am saying. The PG requirements for the MST2's have been cut in half (50 instead of 100). This means if they weren't reduced you could fit a much larger tank (a LSE2 only takes 124 pg and you are gaining 150 on the Scythe).
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#90 - 2012-09-11 19:12:16 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:


I will one up you:

50% bonus to range of Remote Sensor Booster

Put the Warfare in Information Warfare.


No, we will not un-nerf supercaps in any way <_<

That means no tracking link bonus either!

The ECCM bonus sounds like a good idea however. Would help the effort of lessening the annoyance of ECM in smaller fleets. Or, perhaps a bonus to heat consumption on reppers so they can run heated for a long time.

If supers are so bad that they cant consider buffing t1 cruisers without it breaking supercaps then maybe supercaps need to be flagged for NO assistance of any kind.



i second that!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#91 - 2012-09-11 19:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
This fit is horrible, it clearly needs Dual Large Ancillary Shield Boosters like my Oneiros does.


Marcel Devereux wrote:
The Exequror makes a better combat shield tanker than it does a armor logi:

[Exequror, Armor Tanking Is A Joke!]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Medium Shield Maintenance Bot II x5


All V the PG/CPU would be 762.5/343.75. This fit only takes up 577.8/337.5. I'm sure you can tweak this more to have better tank and damage output (currently 209) as I did this by hand.

The reps on the drones is 360 raw hitpoints every 5 seconds, just under one T2 armor rep on the Augoror or Exequror. Still a better tackler than a armor logi. Also this thing is faster than the current Rupture (1,644.49 vs 1,591.35). Hmm. Maybe this will fit into the Alpha Rupture fleets. Reps+DPS. Let's poor another one out for our Armor hommies.

EDIT: The speed was without taking the Overdrive into account. Just All V and with a microwarp.

Where I am.
Lili Lu
#92 - 2012-09-11 19:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Some people have mentioned swapping out the rep drone bonuses on the Scythe and Exequror for range and/or strength bonuses to remote eccm and remote sensor boosters. This would be something new to the game, and would be a power the tech II logis presently lack. Now one could later buff the tech II logis to retain this bonus.

However, the problem comes that then these ships would quite possibly not get use as logis but instead as gate camper support ships. Also, it would mean bonusing mods that go in mids, which has always been a problem with the present tracking link bonuses on tech II logis. Mids that are effectively in short supply on either ship for differing reasons. Also that is a bonus which is largely ignored except for incursion runners. And well if we are going to determine ship bonuses based on incursion runners wishes then let's just call the game Incursions Online.

Therefore, I think the rep drone bonus is actually about the best that can be done. Of course rep drones could use a buff to speed and durability. That might give the bonus some meaningful use. And the general drone interface needs to be simplified. Right clicking and scrolling to engage target is slower than a sinlgle click or f button for the remote reppers. The delay from the interface and the travel time is why rep drones lack favor. But if these issues can be addressed the rep drone bonus is a good secondary bonus for these 2 ships.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#93 - 2012-09-11 19:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Instead of two internal eccm on the ex you get two projected eccm... Works fine for me... The minnie might need an extra mid but thats ok for me...

think of it this way there are three weakness for logi ships:

1: alpha
2: ecm
3: neuting

cal and amarr can defend against nueting but not so much against alpha or ecm

so its only logical that minnie and gal can defend against ecm but not alpha or neuting...

its a good balance...

plus its ok that minnie ship cant fit a cap injector because speep tanking with shields is pretty good

but amor tanks are slow so having a cap injector on the gal ship helps it out allot

standard fit for mids should be:

10mn ab 2 projectted eccm one medium cap injector...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#94 - 2012-09-11 20:12:05 UTC
Scythe:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
15% bonus to Shield Transporter boost amount
5% reduction in Shield Transporter cap use
Role Bonus:
1000% bonus to the range of Shield Transporters
250% bonus to range of projected ECCM
50% bonus to range of remote sensor booster
Slot layout: 3 H (-2), 6 M (+3), 4 L (+1), 2 turrets (-1), 1 launcher (-1)
Fittings: 330 PWG (-95), 415 CPU (+190)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+424) / 1100(+124) / 1300(+324)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+468.75) / 240s(-38.75s) / 5.2 (+2.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250(+47) / 0.6(+0.095) / 11110000 / 6.2s (+0.9)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 45 (+40) / 45 (+40)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(+15) / 400(+55) / 8(+2)
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+2)
Signature radius: 75 (-25)
Cargo capacity: 475 (+35)

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#95 - 2012-09-11 20:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: I'm Down
Exequror in particular looks silly OP and would beg the question, why ever use a t2 armor logistic again. Keep in mind these things get an extra rig slot to make up for resist gap.

From what I'm seeing, I can get it to 52 sig, 81.8% on lowest resist, ~ 700 speed with AB, tech 2 800 plate, 3 medium tech 2 repairers. still got 2 open mid slots, and 3 open mid slots to play around with fittings more, and enough powergrid to at least fit a tech 2 medium cap battery 2 which is going to protect against nos and neut, and boost cap recharge a **** ton.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#96 - 2012-09-11 20:25:01 UTC
*sigh* Another reason to remove armor tanking from the game. It has no place compared to shield tanking. Actually can we just remove armor and have shield + hull?

Bloodpetal wrote:
This fit is horrible, it clearly needs Dual Large Ancillary Shield Boosters like my Oneiros does.


Marcel Devereux wrote:
The Exequror makes a better combat shield tanker than it does a armor logi:

[Exequror, Armor Tanking Is A Joke!]

Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Overdrive Injector System II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I


Medium Shield Maintenance Bot II x5


All V the PG/CPU would be 762.5/343.75. This fit only takes up 577.8/337.5. I'm sure you can tweak this more to have better tank and damage output (currently 209) as I did this by hand.

The reps on the drones is 360 raw hitpoints every 5 seconds, just under one T2 armor rep on the Augoror or Exequror. Still a better tackler than a armor logi. Also this thing is faster than the current Rupture (1,644.49 vs 1,591.35). Hmm. Maybe this will fit into the Alpha Rupture fleets. Reps+DPS. Let's poor another one out for our Armor hommies.

EDIT: The speed was without taking the Overdrive into account. Just All V and with a microwarp.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2012-09-11 20:27:46 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Exequror in particular looks silly OP and would beg the question, why ever use a t2 armor logistic again. Keep in mind these things get an extra rig slot to make up for resist gap.

Because this is only the First round of balances, they did state they are going to do alll T1 ships first starting with frigates, destroyers cruisers battlecrusiers battle ships (capitals i think) then T2 ships

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-09-11 20:32:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ana Fox
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Exequror in particular looks silly OP and would beg the question, why ever use a t2 armor logistic again. Keep in mind these things get an extra rig slot to make up for resist gap.

Because this is only the First round of balances, they did state they are going to do alll T1 ships first starting with frigates, destroyers cruisers battlecrusiers battle ships (capitals i think) then T2 ships

So we will get even mote OP T2 ships?And than eve stronger capital ships?
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#99 - 2012-09-11 20:32:28 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Exequror in particular looks silly OP and would beg the question, why ever use a t2 armor logistic again. Keep in mind these things get an extra rig slot to make up for resist gap.

Because this is only the First round of balances, they did state they are going to do alll T1 ships first starting with frigates, destroyers cruisers battlecrusiers battle ships (capitals i think) then T2 ships


As if Tech 2 logistics aren't silly powerful?
Ana Fox
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-09-11 20:34:54 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
Exequror in particular looks silly OP and would beg the question, why ever use a t2 armor logistic again. Keep in mind these things get an extra rig slot to make up for resist gap.

Because this is only the First round of balances, they did state they are going to do alll T1 ships first starting with frigates, destroyers cruisers battlecrusiers battle ships (capitals i think) then T2 ships


As if Tech 2 logistics aren't silly powerful?


That is point ,if you make T1 ones silly ,that you need to make T2 one viable so they need to buff them.That is not balancing that is kinda lame.