Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Oh boy ad hominem attacks now. That's awfully mature.


And yeah, this doesn't need to be out NOW NOW NOW, but when CCP starts introducing that walking in sleeper structures thing, I'd like to not have to worry about tripping over my feet because I have nothing to wear but heels.

You're replying as though you were Isabel. Are you one of her alts? Or is it just coincidence that you're replying to a question obviously aimed at her?

Don't tell me to stop posting! My opinion is no less valid than yours or anyone else's on this forum.

I will state this once only. If this discussion is to take place, it will do so without personal attacks of any kind. Everyone is entitled to their thoughts, ideas and opinions. If you disagree so strongly that your only response is a snide remark or personal attack, then I highly recommend not posting in that thread.

I will clean this thread, modify the OP to be a little less antagonistic and then unlock it. And to everyone who posts here, keep it constructive, keep it polite or keep out. Such behaviour has no place on these forums and will not be tolerated. Now lets see if we can't have a proper discussion on this matter, you never know what it could lead to if you let it - ISD Type40.

Hi. This is a cop-out and clearly false. The game and our avatars were designed by people with earthly values, so these values clearly affect the game and the lore and the avatars to a greater extent than you'd like to admit. Bias and prejudice from real life were clearly affecting the designers because they are from this real world. The design is also clearly aimed at pleasing actual people with their own biases and aesthetic preferences and whatever, and is obviously not trying to represent some abstract thought exercise about a society completely divorced from the real.

In any case, even if it was the purest form of sci-fi, aiming only to intellectually explore a hypothetical universe, the game and its lore are subject to criticism using real-world values and real-world ethics because it is marketed in the real world to real people, and betrays either the biases of its creators or their perception of their target demographic.

It's necessary to view the game in this greater cultural context because it affects players here in the real world. Players are driven to identify to some extent with their avatars, whether they are invested in the lore or not. Of course it's possible to faceroll through the character creation process to get on with the shooting at space rocks as soon as possible, but at large people are still going to put some amount of effort into the persona that is going to represent them in the game world (or even just on the forums) whether it's actually representative of their real-world identity or not. This is completely independent on how a player feels about the lore in the game, they are not required to be invested in the game universe to be invested in this aspect of the game, the avatar customization still affects how they feel about the game.

So even though heels don't actually show up outside of the captain's quarters—I hadn't actually known that there were no non-high heels options in the game because my internalized misogyny has prevented me from creating a female character—and certainly don't affect the gameplay directly, the lack of a non-high heel option is a problem. I don't think anyone will have a problem with the existence of high-heeled footwear, but having the choice to wear a fashion accessory rather than functional footwear already made for you by the designers and forced upon the player's avatar is immediately alienating.

It perpetuates the real-world objectivization of women in the female EVE avatar as a thing that is meant to look pretty for the benefit of men, and doesn't allow for avatars that represent women with agency who would choose their outfit with foremost practical concerns rather than aesthetical ones. Therefore it pigeonholes players who choose female avatars into identifying with that kind of female character. For women who, you know, actually suffer from misogyny in the real world, being forced to conform to that kind of stereotype even in their imaginary videogamey make-belief worlds that they might seek out to relax from that kind of oppression in real life is probably more frustrating than a privileged white dude could be made to understand.

That is also why the comparison with the cheekless chaps is a complete non-starter. Gender stereotypes and misogyny are simply not a symmetrical issue. You cannot just replace a woman for a man in a hypothetical situation and expect it to retain the same impact, because the situation isn't the abhorrent, oppressive thing, it is the entire culture in which it happens and that caused it. Any given problematic issue derives its weight of meaning and its emotional consequences from a whole system of oppression that colors the whole life of those who are subject to it and is seemingly harmless and a non-issue for those who aren't.

I'm not optimistic enough to expect that producers of mainstream media are lucid enough to recognise that. The usual shortsighted response is that it's worth it to antagonise women in order to make the videogame/movie experience more pleasant for the boys' club by giving them something to ogle. EVE is in good company in that respect with certain other popular MMOs and their sex-specific armor models.

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Clearly false and a cop out...?
I reject your definitions in the context that you are making blanket assumptions on the character of the game designers.
You have no way of knowing their views socially or politically in the real world, therefore your characterization of them is an obvious assumption on your part.

Please limit your arguments to verifiable context, and keep your opinions from being mislabeled as facts.

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You have my sympathy for your aspected low self esteem perception.
For someone believing they hate / distrust / dislike women and or girls, you are going to some effort to champion a cause that is otherwise empty of meaning.

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Sounds like quite a conspiracy you have uncovered.

You have an amazing imagination, this is hardly a worthy cause for such talent.

But please, go on.

Straw man argument.
We are not discussing that, nor does it compare in any legitimate way to our discussion.

Substituting a weaker argument you can beat, for the one you are trying to win, is not a tactic you should lower yourself to.

This thread is now locked.

I asked for it to remain on topic and free of personal attacks and other such things and it seems that is not possible. I also want it noted by everyone that discussion of paedophilia or using it as an analogy to something like this has no place on these forums, is utterly without merit and will not be tolerated - ISD Type40.

As has been posted several times, the appropriate method of handling moderation errors is by petition. ISD Tyrozan