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T2BPO why they should be removed and how.

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Doktor Malinowka
Doomheim
#1101 - 2012-09-11 07:08:19 UTC
Quote:
Rumor threads and posts
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. Players who engage in these type of threads can expect to receive a warning and ban.


doesnt this describe exactly whats going on here, or the OP keep trying to do.... why is the thread still not locked yet?
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#1102 - 2012-09-11 08:15:37 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
[CCP] gave out content who's value far exceeded any effort put into the game to achieve or acquire, they then stopped giving out this content. That is the worse math this game has seen and yet CCP have failed to correct this error and simply allows the error to multiply and compound with each passing day.

Most "limited edition" stuff has value that far exceeds any effort put into the game to achieve or acquire.
Most officer mods ALSO have a value that far exceeds the effort put into the game (by that one person who does catch an officer) to achieve or acquire.
Heck, even bottleneck moongoo, THAT also has a value that far exceeds the effort put into getting it (if it didn't, nobody would bother owning it).

The "error" does not really "compound and multiply" either.
In fact, the numbers of T2 BPOs are slowly but surely going down, NEVER UP (not since 5 years ago anyway).
Also, the effect does not go up, it also goes down - all tweaks to invention, all moongoo changes, everything in that area only REDUCED the importance of T2 BPOs, and future announced//planned changes will reduce it even further.
Out of all T2 BPOs, only a small percentage are actually in production 24/7, and their PROFIT POTENTIAL has kept going DOWN most of the time.
And last but not least, T2 BPOs don't create ISK. They move ISK from one player to another mainly, and in the process actually DESTROY SOME ISK in form of taxes. That's actually good for almost everybody.

Removing T2 BPOs outright WITHOUT HEAVILY BUFFING INVENTION will lead to increased T2 prices (arguably unpleasant for most end users), further inflated bottleneck moongoo prices (also arguably a bad thing), and NO NOTEWORTHY EXTRA PROFIT FOR INVENTORS (which already do just fine regardless of existence or absence of T2 BPOs).
Leaving T2 BPOs alone and instead buffing invention would lead to decreased T2 prices (arguably a good thing), lowered moongoo values (which is also arguably good), but still no extra profit per inventor (possibly, a lower profit per inventor, as invention entry barriers get lowered, more inventors pop up, and some will accept even lower profits, bringing down overall profitability).
Regardless of what you do, inventors will not have it much harder nor much easier. Inventors should not care about T2 BPOs existing or not, and most of the GOOD inventors already don't care.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#1103 - 2012-09-11 09:41:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
I agree buffing invention me and P beyond that of T2BPO would also be a good idea allowing for inventors to control markets and only allowing T2BPO owners access to markets where demand outstrips the supply of invention. The point of the T2BPO would just be for ease with out the invention click fest and installation click fest.

When I ask for more BPO's I'm talking in regards to T3 production. I'd like to see CCP destroy that along with T2 because why only go 1/2 tard when you can go full tard. 1/2 Tard just annoys me because it's CCP admitting that BPO's are a terrible idea with out actually correcting the problem which is just lazy.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1104 - 2012-09-11 12:55:39 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Leaving T2 BPOs alone and instead buffing invention would lead to decreased T2 prices (arguably a good thing), lowered moongoo values (which is also arguably good), but still no extra profit per inventor (possibly, a lower profit per inventor, as invention entry barriers get lowered, more inventors pop up, and some will accept even lower profits, bringing down overall profitability).


So why it's so bad to buff T2 BPOs?

Something like you should be able to use all lines available in the system, but you only need that one BPO.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#1105 - 2012-09-11 13:30:25 UTC

Jorma Morkkis wrote:
So why it's so bad to buff T2 BPOs?
Something like you should be able to use all lines available in the system, but you only need that one BPO.

It's basically the same as releasing 50-200 times more BPOs (so, 500k-2m extra T2 BPOs on top of the ~10k existing ones) and putting them ALL in the hands of the people that already have them. NOT EXACTLY the same, but as close as possible to that from most practical intents and purposes.
This means you'd be drastically slashing T2 manufacture profits to around T1 manufacture levels, with T2 items at their lowest possible prices ever.
Instead of having just a few low-usage items (which no serious inventor would really bother much with even if no T2 BPOs for it existed) where BPOs already fulfill the need, you'd have many more items where BPOs would be able to fulfill the entire need - almost all items, that is (if not all, period).
You'd be basically restricting the market for invention services to a handful of items only, and even for those, at radically lower levels than before. For practical intents and purposes, invention would become


Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
I agree buffing invention me and P beyond that of T2BPO would also be a good idea allowing for inventors to control markets and only allowing T2BPO owners access to markets where demand outstrips the supply of invention.

NOTHING outstrips the potential supply of invention. It is basically as good as limitless. A tiny percentage of the people playing, if going into the invention business, could easily supply all the rest with all needed T2 goods.
Also, past a really low PE/ME level, additional levels are fairly insignificant (there IS a huge difference between ME/PE 0 and ME/PE +1, but the difference between ME/PE: +5 and ME/PE: +50 is much smaller), so even allowing potentially limitless ME/PE levels on invented T2 BPCs, due to datacore/decryptor/T1-BPC/metaitem costs, if you ignore T2 BPO RoI and/or opportunity cost, you still won't be putting invention on par total per unit produced costs wise with T2 BPOs.
Side-note, suggesting that T2 BPOs should be limited to negative ME/PE levels, now that's just silly.

So, yeah, I have nothing against buffing invention to high positive ME/PE levels, via, say, T2 BPC ME/PE levels.
But that also means you need to redesign the bonuses that decryptors provide, because the ME/PE bonuses on them would become quite pointless.


Quote:
The point of the T2BPO would just be for ease with out the invention click fest and installation click fest.

And why exactly do we need to KEEP the current invention clickfest ?
Why should we accept that invention must suck as a given and nerf BPOs as a counter-measure?
Why can't we just streamline the invention process instead, so you could actually invent and produce from invented BPCs in batches up to 30 days long ?
Why do you want to nerf one so badly, when you could heavily buff the other instead ?

Quote:
When I ask for more BPO's I'm talking in regards to T3 production. I'd like to see CCP destroy that along with T2 because why only go 1/2 tard when you can go full tard. 1/2 Tard just annoys me because it's CCP admitting that BPO's are a terrible idea with out actually correcting the problem which is just lazy.

Nobody ever said that T2 BPOs are a good idea. NOBODY. Not me, not anybody else in this thread.
It's just that "fixing it" is not as simple as you make it out to be. YOUR most vocally touted suggestions so far for "fixing" it make things worse, not better. You need to heavily refine your ideas based on feedback, and focus of what you claim you want done that actually stands a chance of ever being implemented.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#1106 - 2012-09-11 13:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:

When I ask for more BPO's I'm talking in regards to T3 production. I'd like to see CCP destroy that along with T2 because why only go 1/2 tard when you can go full tard. 1/2 Tard just annoys me because it's CCP admitting that BPO's are a terrible idea with out actually correcting the problem which is just lazy.


when do you get that your whole T3 argument has simply nothing to do with T2 BPO`s?
There are only 4 different T3 lines in the game while T2 has thousands. The Raw materials for T2 production are getting mined at moons while T3 raw materials can only be farmed...just 2 entirly different production lines, Stop comparing apples with pears, OR do whatever as nobdoy is listening to you anyway.


Akita T wrote:

And why exactly do we need to KEEP the current invention clickfest ?
Why should we accept that invention must suck as a given and nerf BPOs as a counter-measure?
Why can't we just streamline the invention process instead, so you could actually invent and produce from invented BPCs in batches up to 30 days long ?
Why do you want to nerf one so badly, when you could heavily buff the other instead ?


Honestly? I think Invention needs the clickfest to stay profitable. If you take away all the effort and time consuming parts invention will become a alot profitable rofession since everyone will do it on the side. its the overproduction and competition that kills the margins, not the clicking.

shar'ra phone home
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#1107 - 2012-09-11 14:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
For small ammo, some modules and such, casual invention profitability might indeed suffer heavily from the lack of a clickfest, but for ships and other longer things, not so much.
On the other hand, invention results could be rebalanced with regards to skills so that the three appropriate science skills might matter a whole lot more for invention chances, thus actually raising the barrier to entry back at least a bit, so all in all, it should be more or less a wash.
We could also do with a much, MIUCH higher initial install costs in NPC lines, which would also mean larger batches are inherently more profitable than smaller (or even single unit) batches, and that POS production might actually become more attractive. We could also add more POS manufacture installations, with slightly better ME/PE stats than those we currently have, better than NPC lines, to shift the production more from NPC lines to POS lines, even in highsec.
Granted, all that would mean "all L5s" and a heavy starter capital (to keep the lines busy for a few weeks, or even the full month) would be a must to actually make a decent profit in NPC lines, but that's not necessarily such a bad thing IMO.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#1108 - 2012-09-11 14:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Akita T wrote:

On the other hand, invention results could be rebalanced with regards to skills so that the three appropriate science skills might matter a whole lot more for invention chances, thus actually raising the barrier to entry back at least a bit, so all in all, it should be more or less a wash.


agreed, its not required that you have to be "defacto" a perfect inventor after 1-2 month when you will prolly do the same thing over and over for years. new players can start with T1 manufaction before they start with T2. Even tho Industry in is quite a big content and can fill a lot of game time, it requires nearly no skills compared to PVE, pr even mining( litteraly 2 skills that take 2 weeks to manufacture 80% of the items in eve on the same level as 5 year old player)

T2 production does not have to be availbale for a new playerss at all, just as running a lvl4 missions require a couple month time of skill training, standing-grinding. I think, the PE level of all Bluepronts`s can be reduced across the board, to reduce the over-production, and make T2 production to a profession instead of a thing that everyone can do on the side. its prolly not what most ppl want to hear, but the best way to boost invention is to make it harder to get or more it effort to keep it running.

shar'ra phone home
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#1109 - 2012-09-11 15:59:01 UTC
Akita T wrote:
For small ammo, some modules and such, casual invention profitability might indeed suffer heavily from the lack of a clickfest, but for ships and other longer things, not so much.
On the other hand, invention results could be rebalanced with regards to skills so that the three appropriate science skills might matter a whole lot more for invention chances, thus actually raising the barrier to entry back at least a bit, so all in all, it should be more or less a wash.
We could also do with a much, MIUCH higher initial install costs in NPC lines, which would also mean larger batches are inherently more profitable than smaller (or even single unit) batches, and that POS production might actually become more attractive. We could also add more POS manufacture installations, with slightly better ME/PE stats than those we currently have, better than NPC lines, to shift the production more from NPC lines to POS lines, even in highsec.
Granted, all that would mean "all L5s" and a heavy starter capital (to keep the lines busy for a few weeks, or even the full month) would be a must to actually make a decent profit in NPC lines, but that's not necessarily such a bad thing IMO.


I like this

1) Spike the initial cost to something real (or potentially let it float DRAMATICALLY like office prices)
2) Make Lvl5 in the sciences actually mean something (currently, going from lvl 4 to lvl 5 increases success 1.3% on a cruiser... that's fairly trivial)
3) I'd add that the advanced ship assembly thing (the one that lets you do T2 ships) is laughable (the only POS module you can use to build those ships IIRC and it ADDS waste)... I'd suggest giving two of each assembler... a fast one (like there is now) and an "efficient" one (should be no more than 5% efficiency gain to keep it a decent choice). So 35-50% faster or 3-5% less materaials... you choose

______

I <3 Akita T
Seminole Sun
Hell's Librarians
#1110 - 2012-09-11 16:14:56 UTC
I've got no problem with them in general (for reasons MOST of us understand) though I acknowledge the "unfairness" factor involved...

But they point to a specific problem.

Look at command ships. The Astarte costs $241million to build if you do it from a collision measurement (+3ml) decryptor... It sells for $197million

Those ships are flown SOOOO rarely and die SOOOOO rarely, that they are selling at a rate that apparently the BPOs can easily keep up with.

That's probably not healthy... But the problem being the BPOs is not the correct diagnosis. The problem is the ships suck (or, in this specific case, they NEVER die). CCP should mine the market data for the ships and mods that never get used and then figure out why (do they need a buff? or is a game play mechanic keeping them from leaving the economy?)
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1111 - 2012-09-12 07:30:33 UTC
replace the t2 bpo with max run max ME of t2 bpc 'sof the same item
enough BPCs to have 2 year supply of what ever item the bpo was of
so if you have a ship BPC that takes exactly 1 day to make 1 you will get 365x2 BPCs with max ME ( and some PE I guess)

this will be fair to everyone who has the bpo, as they will at the very least have the items to make their isk back, as invention will never have perfect ME they will be getting profit.
the only way it wouldn't be profitable is if someone stupidly bought a t2 bpo for over 2 years worth of manufacturing.
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#1112 - 2012-09-12 09:47:36 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
replace the t2 bpo with max run max ME of t2 bpc 'sof the same item
enough BPCs to have 2 year supply of what ever item the bpo was of
so if you have a ship BPC that takes exactly 1 day to make 1 you will get 365x2 BPCs with max ME ( and some PE I guess)

this will be fair to everyone who has the bpo, as they will at the very least have the items to make their isk back, as invention will never have perfect ME they will be getting profit.
the only way it wouldn't be profitable is if someone stupidly bought a t2 bpo for over 2 years worth of manufacturing.


Why replace the T2 bpo ? arbitrary assumption
Why 2 years supply ? arbitrary value
Why would this be fair ? It's not fair from the point of view of many ! arbitrary justice
Where have you seen a T2 bpo for less than 2 years worth of manufaturing ? ignorance
Why stupidly bought T2 bpo? bpo are traded following the rules of the game, their values are in accordance.

Finally, be honest and acknowledge that what is affected, it is the narcissism of some players who do not have these BPOS and not the production process of T2.

T2 Market is affected by demand, however you produce the items, if there is no demand, stuff won't sell at all. removing bpos, buffing invention will not change that.

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#1113 - 2012-09-12 10:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: shar'ra matcevsovski
Herping yourDerp wrote:
replace the t2 bpo with max run max ME of t2 bpc 'sof the same item
enough BPCs to have 2 year supply of what ever item the bpo was of
so if you have a ship BPC that takes exactly 1 day to make 1 you will get 365x2 BPCs with max ME ( and some PE I guess)

this will be fair to everyone who has the bpo, as they will at the very least have the items to make their isk back, as invention will never have perfect ME they will be getting profit.


Yo, I guess you havent bothered reading the thread... that Idea got brought up a cple times, its just not that good. Fixing something that would apply in 2-3 years and litherally destroy invention over that time is a very bad fix if u aks me.

Herping yourDerp wrote:

the only way it wouldn't be profitable is if someone stupidly bought a t2 bpo for over 2 years worth of manufacturing.


yea please show me a profitable T2 BPO that got sold for a ROI of 2 years...Avg ROI for modules is like 5-6 years when ships rarely getting sold for less then 8 years ROI. You can take any recent sold ship BPO`s as a example for that (scimitar, sleipnir, etc. etc.)
"2 years ROI for a T2 BPO" ... Welcome to Eve-Online.

Eventually you noticed that ppl pay for these BPO`s that much because they become that valuable as a collectors item. So it would just mean to take peoples hard earned collector items away, just because some ppl who cant be bothered to do some math are jelly and moan about stuff they cant afford.

shar'ra phone home
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#1114 - 2012-09-12 12:05:04 UTC
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
yea please show me a profitable T2 BPO that got sold for a ROI of 2 years...Avg ROI for modules is like 5-6 years when ships rarely getting sold for less then 8 years ROI. You can take any recent sold ship BPO`s as a example for that (scimitar, sleipnir, etc. etc.)
"2 years ROI for a T2 BPO" ... Welcome to Eve-Online.

Eventually you noticed that ppl pay for these BPO`s that much because they become that valuable as a collectors item. So it would just mean to take peoples hard earned collector items away, just because some ppl who cant be bothered to do some math are jelly and moan about stuff they cant afford.


T2 Ships that are used much are easy to sell, furthermore if they have no T3 counterparts. That's the case of logistic cruisers and transport ships. Thus having the bpo for something that will sell easily is valuable, hence the high prices for these bpo (last guardian bpo sold for 220 Bil isks)

To be noticed aswell that logistic cruisers are a lot produced threw the invention process, despite of the high productivity of the T2 bpo (around 50 units per month at a station). Because they are almost all the time in high demand and are primaried often

=> When a ship is in high demand, T2 bpos and invention coexist for the benefit of all producers.
=>=> once more, the true problem is buyer-side, buyers want sexy ships and will pay for them. It's not production-side : buffing invention, removing bpos will not improve the intrinsic quality of the product.

This topic from the beginning is a false debate with empty arguments and bad faith

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#1115 - 2012-09-12 13:49:32 UTC
Lara Dantreb wrote:


T2 Ships that are used much are easy to sell, furthermore if they have no T3 counterparts. That's the case of logistic cruisers and transport ships. Thus having the bpo for something that will sell easily is valuable, hence the high prices for these bpo (last guardian bpo sold for 220 Bil isks)


infact, transport ships are one of those ships, that do are not worth inventing as they arent flown enough. BPO`s can easily fill their demand so I bet most of them arent even profitable to build, just like claymore, eos etc. (the deadspace Transportships at least)
for example last Scimi BPO sold for 525bn, last mastodon sold for 60 iirc

shar'ra phone home
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1116 - 2012-09-12 14:41:00 UTC
Akita T wrote:

Jorma Morkkis wrote:
So why it's so bad to buff T2 BPOs?
Something like you should be able to use all lines available in the system, but you only need that one BPO.

It's basically the same as releasing 50-200 times more BPOs (so, 500k-2m extra T2 BPOs on top of the ~10k existing ones) and putting them ALL in the hands of the people that already have them. NOT EXACTLY the same, but as close as possible to that from most practical intents and purposes.
This means you'd be drastically slashing T2 manufacture profits to around T1 manufacture levels, with T2 items at their lowest possible prices ever.
Instead of having just a few low-usage items (which no serious inventor would really bother much with even if no T2 BPOs for it existed) where BPOs already fulfill the need, you'd have many more items where BPOs would be able to fulfill the entire need - almost all items, that is (if not all, period).
You'd be basically restricting the market for invention services to a handful of items only, and even for those, at radically lower levels than before. For practical intents and purposes, invention would become


Forcing other players to stop T2 manufacturing would be good. T2 BPO owners should be allowed to control T2 market.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#1117 - 2012-09-12 14:59:48 UTC
How cute, reverse psychology attempt combined with a false dichotomy. Whatever floats your rhetoric boat, buddy.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#1118 - 2012-09-12 15:16:41 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

Forcing other players to stop T2 manufacturing would be good. T2 BPO owners should be allowed to control T2 market.



You know what? Let's do it. CCP! We need another T2 lottery to push for this change. Let's hand out, oh...200 random T2 BPOs for high-end T2 items and make it happen.

While we're at it, how about one lucky person gets a Revenant BPO to beat back all those rare BPCs with a stick.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1119 - 2012-09-12 17:57:07 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:
You know what? Let's do it. CCP! We need another T2 lottery to push for this change. Let's hand out, oh...200 random T2 BPOs for high-end T2 items and make it happen.

While we're at it, how about one lucky person gets a Revenant BPO to beat back all those rare BPCs with a stick.


Who said anything about lottery? Just give those BPOs to current T2 BPO owners.
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#1120 - 2012-09-12 19:05:14 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
CorInaXeraL wrote:
You know what? Let's do it. CCP! We need another T2 lottery to push for this change. Let's hand out, oh...200 random T2 BPOs for high-end T2 items and make it happen.

While we're at it, how about one lucky person gets a Revenant BPO to beat back all those rare BPCs with a stick.


Who said anything about lottery? Just give those BPOs to current T2 BPO owners.


Even better!