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Provide alternatives to high heeled shoes for female avatars

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Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-11 13:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD TYPE40
Female characters can only pick high heeled shoes at the moment. Needs fixing. Please fix it. *snip*
Discussed previously here

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=145451&find=unread

~ Politics free zone~

I would say it's higher up the priority list as the captain's quarters is something CCP thinks appeals to women.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eve-walking-appeals-to-girls

Not being able to wear flat's doesn't appeal to me :(


EDIT: That little section I snipped was in no way relevant and would just cause trouble, which you wouldn't want in a proper discussion thread, right? - ISD Type40.
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#2 - 2012-09-11 13:31:09 UTC
Isn't it Barbie that also cannot wear flats?
Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-09-11 13:41:45 UTC
Could any professional artists with 3d modelling + animation experience give a guess as to how long it would take to implement flats and recreate the female avatar to be 2" taller?

CCPs official explanation for only heels is that the animation would be far more complex if they had avatars of different heights. Raising the female avatar by 2" to be the same as the male seems like it would solve that problem.
NiGhTTraX
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-09-11 13:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: NiGhTTraX
Faith in ISD restored. Took them long enough though.

Isabel Midnight wrote:
I would say it's higher up the priority list as the captain's quarters is something CCP thinks appeals to women.

I would say reconsider your priorities.

If you're gonna post here thinking your idea is the greatest thing since bacon and that it will save EVE and possibly all humankind with it, you're gonna have a bad time.
Ji'Ta d'Price
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-09-11 14:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Edit: Removed rant - ISD Suvetar
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-09-11 14:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Suvetar
Whilst I understand that it offends you, surely you can see that you currently have options to avoid the issue? Turn off captain's quarters and you aren't wearing any shoes. I agree with you on one count though: If and when CCP allow avatar interaction there should be more clothing and accoutrement choice.

Really, it can't be that difficult. Have two almost identical models for women. One that has legs two inches longer than the other but flat feet. That way the avatar interaction, which presumably takes place predominantly from the waist up, shouldn't be affected but those that want flat shoes can be accommodated. After all, women have different leg to torso ratios in reality so it's not that unbelievable.
Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-09-11 14:19:07 UTC
Not using a major feature of the game isn't really a valid suggestion
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#8 - 2012-09-11 14:28:43 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Not using a major feature of the game isn't really a valid suggestion

Then might I suggest you also use the context of the game itself, and not one inspired by your view of our own social ills from this world?

If you are going to be "in character", then you also should respect the story line and actual background of the character, which by no account includes any misogynist inspiration for women's shoe choices.

If you are NOT going to be "in character", then it is pixels on a screen, and anything beyond what you are wearing on your feet in the real world is meaningless.

Cherry picking details like this exclusive from their context is biased and unfair to the game and it's players.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#9 - 2012-09-11 14:35:20 UTC
As a female gamer, I agree with the OP. It was stupid that the game was designed for women to be forced to wear high heels. Its stupid, and frankly, I do not understand why the OP is getting so much damn flak over it. Its a reasonable request.

How would the men here feel if 100% of their pants were assless chaps and when they wanted pants that were non-assless chaps, they'd be told their concerns were invalid and dismissed offhandedly. Its stupid.

Just because there aren't as many female eve players as male eve players does not in any way justify dismissing the concerns of the female players as unimportant, much less the outright belittling that the OP seems to be receiving.

So to the men out there who don't think this is important: Shut up, go away, and stop trolling. Just because its not important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to other people.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#10 - 2012-09-11 14:42:16 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
As a female gamer, I agree with the OP. It was stupid that the game was designed for women to be forced to wear high heels. Its stupid, and frankly, I do not understand why the OP is getting so much damn flak over it. Its a reasonable request.

How would the men here feel if 100% of their pants were assless chaps and when they wanted pants that were non-assless chaps, they'd be told their concerns were invalid and dismissed offhandedly. Its stupid.

Just because there aren't as many female eve players as male eve players does not in any way justify dismissing the concerns of the female players as unimportant, much less the outright belittling that the OP seems to be receiving.

So to the men out there who don't think this is important: Shut up, go away, and stop trolling. Just because its not important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to other people.

Within the context of the game, we portray whatever the game designers specify.

In EVE, we happen to portray what appears to be human beings. For all intents and purposes I can accept that, as I am familiar with this form.

We could just as easily been cat people, or walking stacks of bacteria. This is an arbitrary choice, not one forced by logic. We are flying spaceships not dependent on any specific pilot anatomy, so it is not meaningful.

Assuming we have social issues in game due to similarities to human appearances in the real world is not founded on logic or any other solid base of reasoning.

Therefore, the shoe choices are not relevant either.

Players should enjoy the fact that at events we can more easily cosplay our avatars due to similarities, not assume the presence of issues existing in game worlds.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-09-11 14:49:12 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
As a female gamer, I agree with the OP. It was stupid that the game was designed for women to be forced to wear high heels. Its stupid, and frankly, I do not understand why the OP is getting so much damn flak over it. Its a reasonable request.

How would the men here feel if 100% of their pants were assless chaps and when they wanted pants that were non-assless chaps, they'd be told their concerns were invalid and dismissed offhandedly. Its stupid.

Just because there aren't as many female eve players as male eve players does not in any way justify dismissing the concerns of the female players as unimportant, much less the outright belittling that the OP seems to be receiving.

So to the men out there who don't think this is important: Shut up, go away, and stop trolling. Just because its not important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to other people.


I think you'd find that most guys would think being forced to wear cheekless chaps amusing at best and not care that much at worst. Some would complain but I doubt very much they'd make a sexist argument about it.

Perhaps the issue here isn't one of computer games. Perhaps this is all about real body image and differences regarding the link people have with their avatars. Men don't tend to inject themselves into their characters as they tend to either role play as the character (and not their real self) or ignore them as an entity in favour of the ships themselves. Women, perhaps, regard their avatars as themselves rather than as an avatar and therefore their clothing, appearance and shoes actually matter to them.

Therefore, to men (and women who actually play the spaceship part of the game over walking around their captain's quarters) the concept of what they're wearing doesn't matter overly whereas women focus on it.

They're just different perspectives and not exclusive to either sex. Men are more prone to not caring what they wear in computer games and women are but obviously there are some men who are and some women who aren't. These things tend to follow a bell curve.

Why don't we remove the sexes from the discussion and focus on whether there are any good reasons for CCP to NOT introduce elongated leg models with flat shoes to the game?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2012-09-11 15:22:54 UTC
Elshar Khandar wrote:
Why don't we remove the sexes from the discussion and focus on whether there are any good reasons for CCP to NOT introduce elongated leg models with flat shoes to the game?

As with any issue requiring time and effort, it is a matter of priorities.

To establish whether this rates immediate attention, we would need to consider the details of the game and how this affects it.

1> We do not yet have anything but the ability to see ourselves yet, and only by making specific effort to choose this. It is not a frequent event to have impact at this time with other players beyond possible test environments.

2> It is cosmetic, with no gameplay significant benefit to be had. It is difficult to even see another character's shoes.
If we are going for cosmetic changes I would prefer seeing the Federation Navy Comet's police cruiser skin restored. After all, I can fly that ship and easily be seen by other players doing so. I would prefer to project the image I find most pleasing.

3> This entire forum section has CCP's to do list stickied above. And I can see many interests and suggestions vying for attention below these. This issue is trivial by comparison to most of these.


I do not believe this issue warrants attention as a priority for these reasons.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-09-11 15:27:18 UTC
Why did CCP spend years implementing this feature if it wasn't a priority?
Alayna Le'line
#14 - 2012-09-11 15:33:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alayna Le'line
Saede Riordan wrote:
As a female gamer, I agree with the OP. It was stupid that the game was designed for women to be forced to wear high heels. Its stupid, and frankly, I do not understand why the OP is getting so much damn flak over it. Its a reasonable request.


It is like this in most games, likely because high heels are considered to be sexier by most. EVE is one of the games where it bothers me the least, part of this is because I haven't seen my full avatar in quite a long time, the other part because my avatar doesn't actually get involved in anything where high heels would be a hindrance. Elshar also brings up some good points.

I don't know how much work changing it would be, of course if they use the same engine for Dust I would assume they already have a model ready, because in games like Dust high heels on female characters would actually really bother me (I know it annoyed the hell out of me in the Mass Effect games). If they don't then changing this could be a pretty big undertaking.

Anyway, as long as they don't do more with WiS I don't think this should be a high priority even though I do sympathize with the OP.

*since this seems to be one of these weird threads where all posters so far have posted with an avatar of their actual gender I feel I have to point out that I do not share my gender with my avatar.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-09-11 15:35:33 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Why did CCP spend years implementing this feature if it wasn't a priority?


Hubris.

If memory serves there was a significant backlash from the players involving large numbers of account cancellations which in turn meant layoffs within CCP which had the knock on effect of them reprioritising the various development streams (WIS was pretty much dropped at that point) followed by a public apology from the CEO.

You might think it's a priority for them but history and the majority of the players would disagree with you, I'm afraid.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#16 - 2012-09-11 15:38:06 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Why did CCP spend years implementing this feature if it wasn't a priority?


It *was* a priority. Then Monoclegate, the threadnarok, emergency CSM summit, Jita Riot, etc all happened.

CCP changed tracks, and put this more or less on the backburner because they realized FiS needed a lot of work.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-09-11 15:39:09 UTC
Alayna Le'line wrote:

*since this seems to be one of these weird threads where all posters so far have posted with an avatar of their actual gender I feel I have to point out that I do not share my gender with my avatar.


Kudos for the honesty.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#18 - 2012-09-11 15:42:23 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Why did CCP spend years implementing this feature if it wasn't a priority?

I never claimed walking in stations and other first person interaction like this was not a priority.

I was pointing out that your interest, in the context that this is not yet an active game aspect, is relatively trivial to the game as a whole.

You are pushing for a detail noone but you can see on your character.

And you are doing it for reasons that step outside of game lore. What in game value will flat shoes have, that the art and modeling people need to spend time and effort to offer?

Our avatars are not on earth. They do not have values derived from earth, which means the bias and prejudice from real life do not apply in the game.

Why do you insist on projecting real world issues into a game world where they have no justifiable place?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Isabel Midnight
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-09-11 15:52:09 UTC
Game lore means nothing to me in any way. I do care about what my character looks like. Don't try and tell me I shouldn't care about my characters appearance because GAME LOREEEEE.

If CCP update WiS (which they will at some point) this should be high on their priority list to add. I find it very unlikely that they are just going to totally abandon this feature and will release updates to it in the future, I'm saying flats should be in that update.

WiS may not have the same priority as your super important minor changes to numbers on your spaceship but it does have at least somebody working on it at the moment.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-09-11 16:00:50 UTC
Isabel Midnight wrote:
Game lore means nothing to me in any way. I do care about what my character looks like. Don't try and tell me I shouldn't care about my characters appearance because GAME LOREEEEE.


Game lore means a lot to a lot of the players. Just because it doesn't to you doesn't mean it doesn't.

Isabel Midnight wrote:
If CCP update WiS (which they will at some point) this should be high on their priority list to add. I find it very unlikely that they are just going to totally abandon this feature and will release updates to it in the future, I'm saying flats should be in that update.


I believe that this is what I actually said. When and only when avatar interactions become a reality does this actually matter. Are you agreeing with this?

Isabel Midnight wrote:
WiS may not have the same priority as your super important minor changes to numbers on your spaceship but it does have at least somebody working on it at the moment.


You're degenerating into the arena of sarcastic insults again. Please don't go the route of your last thread. We know where that ends up.


@Ji'Ta - If you can't post without being insulting please stop posting. You've already had one post removed from this thread. Even though everyone knows that the concept of your most recent comments are very likely to be true you're doing nothing to help your standpoint in this discussion.
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