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The mining barge gambit
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Kendra Coldera
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#61 - 2012-09-11 08:17:51 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Instead, guess what, you are welcome to the new game changes, CCP agreed with me and not with you.


So you're saying balancing is a one and done deal and problems that crop up should be ignored? Oookay...


There are no problems cropping up, so nothing to ignore.

After the patch, even industrial ships have fitting options even if they are somewhat canned. I'd have preferred players could get actual slots (like - you know - most ships) to play with and experiment to their preferred exactly tank vs yield balance but this solution is still much better than before ("max yield & no tank or you may as well mine in a Rokh").

The day killboards stop showing copious Macks & Hulks kills is the day you'll be right.



Again, you're arguing that ships should be balanced based on their least intelligent users.

Intelligent Hulk pilots didn't show up on killboards before the buff because they didn't get ganked. Either they were smart enough to figure out that they could tank their ship *shock,* or they mined aligned, or whatever.

The Mackinaw is overpowered because Smart Miners can fit it such that it is strictly better than the Skiff. It doesn't have to sacrifice any fittings in most sec bands, and in the lowest HS bands, it can still fit an unprofitable tank with 2 MLUs, rendering it equivalent to the Skiff with double the ore hold. So why would you ever use a Skiff to mine in HS?


I'll just leave this here:

Skiff: 2494 yield per Minute (with Boosts) / 1634 (without)
EHP: 61k (no boosts)

Mackinaw: 2588 yield per Minute (with Boosts) / 1651 (without)
EHP: 21k

Hulk: 2942 yield per Minute (with Boosts) / 1859 (without)
EHP: 17k

These are genuine fits that I smashed together in a few minutes.

And the choice here seems obvious: If you do actually care for the yield (this was the premise, low slots all MLU - of course you can go more afkish with a DCU but that only shifts advantage to the Skiff because it does NOT need one as tank is already plenty) you will have to look if you are supported by a Fleet (aka Hauling) or not. If you are not you can only take the Mackinaw (or can-mine lol).
Lets say you have a fleet: Skiff is doing a really nice performance because it probably won't ever be ganked (unless you really made someone hate you). My fit for example has double Mining Drone Augmentator II (which is the reason the performance is even to the Mack without Links) and you do not have to be scared to take a dump while mining - it will still be there when you are back.

You are permanently stating the obvious: Of course the Mackinaw is the choice for the solo miner simply because of the hold. Nothing will ever change that.
Kendra Coldera
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2012-09-11 08:24:40 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

The smart miners who liked tanking their ships should be using a Skiff, because that's what it's designed for instead of using a Mackinaw because it tanks so well that there's no reason to use a Skiff. The smart miners who kept safe in other ways have no need for tank, so this discussion has no impact on them.

[...]

So where's the EHP buff to every other T2 cruiser? Every other T2 cruiser can be suicide ganked while empty for about the same profit as empty Exhumers (pre-buff). Same thing with Miner-Tanked T2 Cruisers (no tank, all DPS/Guns). (Actually, T2 Cruisers fit like an untanked mining ship are more profitable, because the rack of guns is more expensive).


This discussion is like special needs school for the "special" kids.

I mean READ what you are writing: The --->SMART<--- miners should use the Skiff instead of figuring out they can tank a Mack or Hulk in a way that its just enough...


Sorry for double post.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#63 - 2012-09-11 08:32:25 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

So you're saying that the Skiff's a useless brick? For once we agree. As long as a Mackinaw is unprofitable to gank with 2 MLUs, it mines the same as a Skiff, has the same likelihood of being ganked as a Skiff, and has twice the cargo space of a Skiff, so it is, in all cases, better than a Skiff.


Don't try pulling a Tippia nitpick when you are not as eloquent.
A Skiff is the tanky solution that won't die in 0.5 sec (you know ice mining in Emol requires that) even with a decent ganking effort, while the Mack will.

Anyway your whole point is completely and utterly irrelevant. People now are using a lot of Retrievers and guess why? They don't care about your damn MLU or to top the ISK per hour

Since the dawn of mining, the basic setup has been max cargo expanded and rigged, NOT MLUs. Retriever is the near-zero cost AFK mining of choice, Mack is for those who prefer a sturdier ship instead of a disposable one. Period.

Nobody cares about AFK mining a roid in 20 minutes instead of 23, it's AFK mining anyway.
I don't say it's an OK mechanic, because frankly a subscription based MMO with a gameplay best done while AFK is pathetic, but that's the current "state of the art" we got.

So, after you little crusade would eventually take away 1 MLU... nothing will change. Max cargo >>>>>all.
So what will you cry about next?


Pipa Porto wrote:

Sorry, I was too busy calling for CCP to topple the biggest problem with mining at the time; the fact that the best mining ship (by mineral volume yielded) was the Sentry Carrier. Then I was trying to teach miners how to avoid getting ganked.


... I tried your suggestions: the fittings sucked and were useless, the advice does not apply to what 95% of miners do: fully AFK mining.

Only somebody completely oblivious to how EvE really works would impose sick 8 hour cycles of D-SCAN spamming worse than low sec, constant trajectory updates to be aligned and similar.

Imagine a RL miner being told they must go around with an AK-47, camouflage suit, kevlar suit and infrared googles "just in case".


Pipa Porto wrote:

3. I fit Meta stuff to combat ships for fitting reasons all the time.


That's your choice, to squeeze out the last bit of functionality like adding an electronic warfare module, scan res and similar.
Mining ships *after the buff* can't afford those luxuries. If I wanted to put a survey scanner on a Mack I'd have to give up to lots of tank.

In the mean time my 'canes and Maels - the most PG constrained racial ships in game - can get a viable fit with no compromise and rarely a 3% PG implant.

Pipa Porto wrote:

4. So? I use fitting rigs on combat ships all the time.


Just so that those ships stay all in one piece?


Pipa Porto wrote:

5. So? I am talking about the balance between the Skiff and the Mackinaw. The fact that the Cargo hold of the Mackinaw is more valuable than the yield bonus of the Hulk is a whole separate discussion.


No, it's the same discussion, because cargo always pays an heavy factor and is interwined with the rest of the considerations.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#64 - 2012-09-11 08:35:03 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

The Mackinaw is a T2 Ship. The Iteron V is a T1 Ship. One of these things is not like the other.


Both can be empty. Both should be profitably ganked when they carry something worth the gank. It's not about the tech, it's about the game design.


Pipa Porto wrote:

Why should HS miners be able to run their ships in the most efficient way possible without being subject to any significant risk?


They park a ship and watch a video, that's how much they go for "the most efficient way".
Those who really do, fly an Hulk.


Pipa Porto wrote:

No other HS activity can be run in the most efficient way possible with a similar lack of risk.


Quite sure I do missions since years with more expensive ships than exhumers, I totally go for full glass cannon and never lost a single one.

How does it compare to going in a random The Forge ice mining system (where drops the ice that matters) and getting scanned every single day and - if not GTFO fast - they warp in 3+ catalysts in 3 minutes?


Pipa Porto wrote:

The most efficient Mission runners have faction gear (often enough to be worth ganking), can have their activities disrupted by people stealing mission objectives or by people wardeccing them (unlike miners, Mission runners lose money if they're in NPC corps). The most efficient industrialists can lose billions on market changes or have their activities disrupted by a wardec (depending on whether they do invention or not). Incursion runners run the risk of suicide BBs, bad Logis, etc. Freight operators run the risk of Suicide Gank (limiting yourself to 1-2b per haul is less efficient than not doing so).


For years I have done most efficient L4 missions with faction gear, my public trades are posted on my website for everyone to see (and I swing trade and I swing trade 4-10B at a time, much more dangerous than station trading).
I also freigthed stuff for third parties for months to the point I have been offered moderator role in the "Legit logistics" chat (on my alt Vaerah Vain).

Guess what, every of those professions has its challenges and risks, mining is less risky than trading but more than hauling (with a brain) and much more than missioning - while giving a fraction of the income.


Pipa Porto wrote:

Again, that's a Civillian Booster Mackinaw (with Survey Scanner even) that you say should be profitable to gank


Nope, don't try putting words in my place. No ship should be profitable to gank (including T2 "other" cruisers you diligently brought as example) when empty or with worthless mods.
The haulers are the perfect example of the concept: worthless when empty, worth when carrying worth stuff inside.
It's the contents not the empty hull that matters.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#65 - 2012-09-11 08:35:17 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Like I showed above, in most of HS, the Mack is perfectly safe from a profitable gank. No matter how poorly fitted.


LOL


Pipa Porto wrote:

In .8 sec, you have 7s to gank a ship. That means each Catalyst puts out 3500 damage. An untanked Mack drops 17.5m in loot and Salvage and has 14.8k EHP (thats MSMIIs and 3 MLUIIs). It takes 5 Catalysts to kill it.


As per game design. So?

I also despised the very poor PG affecting the Minmatar ships and hate Minmatar being a dead end the second we talk about capitals and supercaps.
Guess what, game did not change a bit, I still chose to keep playing, hardened the **** up and cross trained.
You should too, really.


Pipa Porto wrote:

Care to show how many tanked, 3 MLU Macks (since you're claiming that they're vulnerable) have gotten ganked since the patch


Considering no one of the Mack designed player base cares to use 3 MLUs (they are after AFK), and that so many switched to Retrievers (the cargo is there, they are happy as is)?
Probably few if any.

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Kendra Coldera
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2012-09-11 08:40:02 UTC
Quote:
No other HS activity can be run in the most efficient way possible with a similar lack of risk.
The most efficient Mission runners have faction gear (often enough to be worth ganking), can have their activities disrupted by people stealing mission objectives or by people wardeccing them (unlike miners, Mission runners lose money if they're in NPC corps).


If you are subject to get ganked in a Mission boat you are not flying the most efficient version. Your whole way of thinking seems ****** up to be honest.

Why? Lets assume 4 Damage mods. If 2 of these are faction you have like 90%+ of the damage bonus (cba to calculate). I think I calculated it once and noticed: a 3rd Faction Heat Sink gives you 14 dps and the last one does almost nothing (7).

On a 4 Heat Sink Paladin with Burst Aerator II (I consider all fits that do not have this a failure) the maximum DPS with 4 Faction Sinks is: 1198 = 100%. with 3 its 1191 = 99.42%, with 2 its 1177 = 98.25%.

And I think a Paladin having 45k EHP with 2 Faction Sinks and maybe a Faction Rep is 100% safe unless you flip back flipped loot or similar stupidity.

Obviously a 4 Officer Tach, 4 Officer Heat Sink, Officer Tracking Comp Paladin is not the most efficient choice here.
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-09-13 01:57:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:

Except that Macks don't forfeit yield compared to the Skiff, they don't forfeit Cargo space compared to the Skiff, and they tank enough that they can't be economically ganked, so they aren't sacrificing anything for their Cargo space.


Most mining ships are not ganked for profit. Next time hulkaggedon roles around I would not want to be in a Mack.