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Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

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Rengerel en Distel
#821 - 2012-09-11 00:23:30 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
If I were a ruling member of the CFC, I'd actually be pushing to get a carebear representative on the CSM, rather than 3 CFC members. I'd want the carebear issues to be heard and properly addressed by CCP, so that they keep on playing and provide me and mine with more targets to shoot and tears to harvest, whenever we want to run amok through high sec.

Yes, the highsec miners got Issler. Remember what happened when we shot the tower, and harvested the tears?


You guys hiring another alliance to destroy low sec towers -- because you couldn't be bothered -- doesn't have much to do with Issler representing mining though, does it? It has little to do with any voting reform either.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#822 - 2012-09-11 00:26:08 UTC
Gonna fullquote a post from the other thread here because it's relevant:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
we've got a specific beef with the "nerf goons" plank of the discussion and the only engagement on the merits we've gotten is one treborpost and some vauge discussion by hans where he doesn't take much of a position

As far as I'm aware, the only CSM who hasn't accepted that the "nerf goons" aspect of the proposal is not a good idea during the course of the related threads is the person who posted it.

Unwilling to accept victory, then calls became "while it's still there, edit it!" which I'd be happy to oblige A. If i had Trebors log in and B. If I thought it'd actually help anything. Hans has spent the better part of 8 pages trying to be the bigger man and easily 50% of replies are still ad hominem attacks, straw men, or just repeating "**** goons" over and over as if a significant portion of the CSM is still standing behind it.

It's time to realize: they're not. I'm not. Hans isn't. Seleene isn't. Two Step isn't. Dovi isn't. The list goes on. By any objective standard Goons have "won" but Goonrushing past the endzone isn't much of a peace plan. Saying nothing needs to be changed is a perfectly legitimate piece of feedback.

I don't wholely agree, I think there's somethings we could do better at. Having a smaller field of strong candidates so voters aren't flooded with choice by joke candidates is one area (which may help improve diversity, improve quality of elected councils, and increase voter turn out) and better handling a "Mitannigate" situation where an elected CSM can't take office, specifically. None of those have anything to do with "**** goons."

I don't have the ability to edit posts Trebor makes, in the CSM's name or otherwise. Neither does Hans or anyone else. If you are mad at Trebor because he won't retroactively go back and wipe that line from his OP, be mad. But, at least in my mind, the issue is closed and that concept is a non-starter. I am fairly certain the overwhelming majority of the CSM would share that view at this point.

I don't see how his post still existing is a legitimate reason to completely shout down any discussion about other areas of disagreement or potential improvements in how we elect our CSMs or treating like **** CSM like Hans who are trying to talk in good faith. I was, am, and will be dismissive and flippant about those that continue on shouting when the "other side" has already conceded the point. Hans is a lot more patient than I am in that regard, actually engaging with people and doing his best to pick out the sensible comments amid a sea of trolling. Even Seleene took time out of dealing with his RL to try to reengage this discussion with a good starting point and talk reasonably with people seeing red.

They are both still getting **** on, and posters like Poetic wonder why other CSM aren't lining up to speak. To quote Rainbow Dash: "Yeah, it's a mystery."

So the only person on the CSM who still wants the fuckgoons clause is Trebor, everyone else is now recanting it. Progress!
Frying Doom
#823 - 2012-09-11 00:32:11 UTC
digi wrote:
Thread still useless, CSM still useless.


It is so nice to hear from a member so Goonswarm that does not care about the CSM altering the voting mechanics.

As to the rest of the members of Goonswarm in this thread, you complain a lot when some one other than you threatens to game the system and this is not even that it is more about making minorities, minorities.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#824 - 2012-09-11 00:36:49 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:

The CFC has never held 3 seats, nor could we.

I wasn't responding to any statement - true or otherwise - by Trebor, but to this quote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Expect at least 3 of us in CSM8, maybe more.


EvilweaselFinance wrote:
If we have qualified people we want to put up for election, we have as much right to have them compete for votes on a level playing field with everyone else.

I wasn't arguing against anyone's right to compete for votes. I am arguing for a broader spectrum representation of the playerbase. Given the limited number of CSM seats, I believe that they do need to be allocated to specific areas/issues, candidates need to run for a specific seat, and that attempts to fill the CSM with a singular POV need to be deterred.

For example, I don't disagree that null sec has issues that are of high priority to null sec players, and that such issues need to be presented to CCP, again and again, until they get fixed. However, there are many other areas and aspects of the game which also deserve to be represented within the CSM and presented to CCP, and cannot be best represented by a null sec centric PVP player. Such as high sec mining - I don't know of any null sec PVP players who currently belong to a high sec mining fleet, except possibly as a spy. If CCP proposes to fix mining, then I'd like to see a full-time miner on the CSM, vetting those proposed changes, rather than two null sec experts/proponents, who happen to think that mining is the most boring thing in the game (which it is, IMO).

And, just out of curiousity, how many of the current CSM members do regularly fly the mining barges and exhumers which were changed in the last patch? I know that the devs don't fly them.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#825 - 2012-09-11 00:38:43 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
So the only person on the CSM who still wants the fuckgoons clause is Trebor, everyone else is now recanting it. Progress!
It is too bad Trebor has decided not to run for CSM again. He won't know crushing defeat.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#826 - 2012-09-11 02:39:16 UTC
On a lighter note, has anyone seen the old Richard Pryor version of "Brewster's Millions"?

How about adding "None of the Above" to the candidate list?

At the very least, it would be interesting to see how many players *actively* vote against all of the candidates, as compared to how many players just don't vote at all.
Kaleb Rysode
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#827 - 2012-09-11 03:21:32 UTC
digi wrote:
Thread still useless, CSM still useless.



Digi bad posting...Digi still badposting.

"The reality is that the sandbox is amoral. You don't have to like it, but...reality owns."
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#828 - 2012-09-11 03:57:57 UTC
threadnought, threadnought, You can do it.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#829 - 2012-09-11 04:07:02 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
On a lighter note, has anyone seen the old Richard Pryor version of "Brewster's Millions"?

How about adding "None of the Above" to the candidate list?

At the very least, it would be interesting to see how many players *actively* vote against all of the candidates, as compared to how many players just don't vote at all.

That would be interesting. Wouldn't be good though, if it appears a majority of the players seem to not want a CSM (or at least a CSM consisting of any of the candidates presented).

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ghazu
#830 - 2012-09-11 04:10:50 UTC
I don't care about all this crap I am going to go all McCarthy on all yo asses and crucify (politically) every single one of you barbie loving deviants.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#831 - 2012-09-11 04:12:32 UTC
Ghazu wrote:
I don't care about all this crap I am going to go all McCarthy on all yo asses and crucify (politically) every single one of you barbie loving deviants.

And here I was going to make some horrible bad taste joke about XXYY not included in the barbie set.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Trendon Evenstar
Olympus Gods
#832 - 2012-09-11 05:15:46 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
What's interesting about this thread, is that I think the CSM expected an outpouring of support for this proposal from the anti-Goon crowd (which usually seems substantial), yet where are they? Is there any support for the CSM's proposal in this thread? Maybe it can be assumed that even the anti-Goon crowd believes this to be a bad idea. The anti-Goon crowd has never not taken an opportunity to sh*t on Goons.


There really isn't much of an anti-goon crowd except for a handful of NPC corp alts and Frying Doom. Who probably needs to be shown to room 101.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#833 - 2012-09-11 05:39:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
On a lighter note, has anyone seen the old Richard Pryor version of "Brewster's Millions"?

How about adding "None of the Above" to the candidate list?

At the very least, it would be interesting to see how many players *actively* vote against all of the candidates, as compared to how many players just don't vote at all.

That would be interesting. Wouldn't be good though, if it appears a majority of the players seem to not want a CSM (or at least a CSM consisting of any of the candidates presented).

lol... that is sort of the point I was trying to make, after following this thread ... :)
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#834 - 2012-09-11 05:48:19 UTC
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
What's interesting about this thread, is that I think the CSM expected an outpouring of support for this proposal from the anti-Goon crowd (which usually seems substantial), yet where are they? Is there any support for the CSM's proposal in this thread? Maybe it can be assumed that even the anti-Goon crowd believes this to be a bad idea. The anti-Goon crowd has never not taken an opportunity to sh*t on Goons.

There really isn't much of an anti-goon crowd except for a handful of NPC corp alts and Frying Doom. Who probably needs to be shown to room 101.

I suspect that most of the anti-Goon sentiment is actually invented and generated by the Goons themselves. And I would not be surprised if most of the anti-Goon forum posters turned out to be Goon alts.

Is this all just another clever scheme of TheMittani? Goon membership sure doesn't seem to be suffering - I suspect that the number of applications have gone way up, ever since the so-called anti-Goon sentiment started.

But, then, I do enjoy conspiracy theories....
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#835 - 2012-09-11 06:32:46 UTC
alex jones listener alert
Frying Doom
#836 - 2012-09-11 06:38:15 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
What's interesting about this thread, is that I think the CSM expected an outpouring of support for this proposal from the anti-Goon crowd (which usually seems substantial), yet where are they? Is there any support for the CSM's proposal in this thread? Maybe it can be assumed that even the anti-Goon crowd believes this to be a bad idea. The anti-Goon crowd has never not taken an opportunity to sh*t on Goons.

There really isn't much of an anti-goon crowd except for a handful of NPC corp alts and Frying Doom. Who probably needs to be shown to room 101.

I suspect that most of the anti-Goon sentiment is actually invented and generated by the Goons themselves. And I would not be surprised if most of the anti-Goon forum posters turned out to be Goon alts.

Is this all just another clever scheme of TheMittani? Goon membership sure doesn't seem to be suffering - I suspect that the number of applications have gone way up, ever since the so-called anti-Goon sentiment started.

But, then, I do enjoy conspiracy theories....

Yes I confess I am a goon altLol

But seriously, yes the goons do need to be the center of the universe which is why such a small number of players make so much noise and now a website too, whats next Goonswarm the cerealLol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#837 - 2012-09-11 06:39:23 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
As to the rest of the members of Goonswarm in this thread, you complain a lot when some one other than you threatens to game the system and this is not even that it is more about making minorities, minorities.


The dismissive way that you refer to 'minorities' and the indifference you show towards disenfranchising them is very telling.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Frying Doom
#838 - 2012-09-11 06:39:55 UTC
Trendon Evenstar wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
What's interesting about this thread, is that I think the CSM expected an outpouring of support for this proposal from the anti-Goon crowd (which usually seems substantial), yet where are they? Is there any support for the CSM's proposal in this thread? Maybe it can be assumed that even the anti-Goon crowd believes this to be a bad idea. The anti-Goon crowd has never not taken an opportunity to sh*t on Goons.


There really isn't much of an anti-goon crowd except for a handful of NPC corp alts and Frying Doom. Who probably needs to be shown to room 101.

Actually I hate to break your illusions but Goonswarm as an Alliance, I could take or leave but you do swallow bait really well on the forums.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#839 - 2012-09-11 06:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
As to the rest of the members of Goonswarm in this thread, you complain a lot when some one other than you threatens to game the system and this is not even that it is more about making minorities, minorities.


The dismissive way that you refer to 'minorities' and the indifference you show towards disenfranchising them is very telling.

Oh good to see we are up to the disenfranchising catch phrase.

So
Wikipedia wrote:

Disfranchisement

Disfranchisement (also called disenfranchisement) is the revocation of the right of suffrage (the right to vote) of a person or group of people, or rendering a person's vote less effective, or ineffective. Disfranchisement may occur explicitly through law, or implicitly by intimidation or by placing unreasonable requirements.

First-past-the-post voting systems

Under the first past the post (FPTP) single member voting system the highest polling candidate is elected as opposed to a candidate that has an absolute majority of votes. A candidate can be elected with less than 50% support with the majority of voters remaining unrepresented. As an example, if three candidates receive 40%, 32% and 28% of the vote respectively, the candidate with 40% of the vote is elected whilst 60% of the electorate go unrepresented. FPTP is used in most jurisdictions in the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom.


So in the last CSM election 59,109 Accounts voted and only 34238 accounts were counted towards the candidates with 14813 voters Disfranchised.

Yeah so the voting system you so want to keep because it is good for your minority while 24% of the voters where disfranchised in the last election.

But Goonswarm and Test member complain because things might be set to a fashion that is not so much in the way of their favour.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#840 - 2012-09-11 07:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Frying Doom wrote:
But Goonswarm and Test member complain because things might be set to a fashion that is not so much in the way of their favour.

It's almost as if you've no idea how much the proposed system could be gamed by us to **** them right back.

Much like CCP's latest incarnation of game mechanics, so too are CSM's idea of voting mechanics hilariously gameable. But don't let that stop you from believing that we're bitching about the voting mechanic because of what it does, instead of what it intended to do.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat