Intergalactic Summit

Traitor is suitable, I would say.

Although the defection of rogue Ishukone staff to the Republic would appear to be an occurrence that happens with enough frequency to warrant its own specific term to describe the phenomenon, I would say. It certainly appears to have become cliche enough. Or since both Hnolku and Tukoss were both former Ishukone employees, Liberal may suffice. Perhaps one day we in the State may see an Ishukone Shaman, and their citizens wearing tribal tattoos much like Gallente in the Federation.

Sometimes I think there is a danger in taking cultural sensitivity training too far and forgetting one is Caldari and a citizen of the State, first and foremost.

So long as that experience and perspective is neither Amarrian nor involves God, I take it. I do wonder, if in the interests of honesty and equivalency, one is willing to attack and denigrate the Amarrian faith and God on the basis of pure rationalism then would that not also require an attack at the very least on Matari spiritualism and shamanism along with the foundations of Caldari culture and national vitalism through the philosophical locus of liberal existentialism? Or is there another underlying reason to explain what appears to be hypocrisy?

As for what it means to be a Caldari, I think there are those that remain climbing the mountain and choose to accept its burdens and hardships for even if rocks may cut the flesh to spill their blood on its surface and the elements may leave one in starvation and thirst they cannot break a spirit with strength and determination. Then there are those who watch on, too weak and soft to walk the same path and left with sole resort to excuses and platitudes as to why they do not walk with their brothers and sisters.

The Caldari State is the mountain, and the duty of its citizens is to realize its dream and destiny by walking its path together as one. Those unable or unwilling are no different to Hnolku and Tukoss. What need for perspective when the path of duty is clear?

States, these silly human constructs against nature and natural law.

Amidst the empires are grassy fields where animals grazed, and will graze again amist ruins in those fields.

A cliched generalisation.

It can be debated that in a true meritocracy, one of the constants required to ensure its ongoing success is the need for constant and unrestricted critical analysis of all elements within that system. Probe, test, analyse the results and either eliminate the weaknesses identified or replace them with something - or someone - which does not demonstrate those faults.

Otherwise, how do you determine if those who have 'earnt' their position continue to warrant holding it?

Mr Amith,

Do not take this as a personal attack on your figure, its just that either i understand slavery completely wrong from you or the argument you have posed here is as controversial as it seems.

First of all the word penance seems highly controversial and i believe it would be great if you could put it in one context...do you mean it here as ''a self-punishment for sin '', or as ''duty imposed by priest'' ?

Either way you are making a remark about slavery on the one hand being the only way of true guidance to what you label as a true God/religion and on the other hand you state that you dont agree with slavery but finally, again you wish slavery not to be abolished because you believe that since you label yourselves capable of teaching God to others and if they leave fro your grasp you have the fear their souls will be lost.

This whole remark i can label it as unfair at best towards to those who have been exposed to your religion and simply dont believe believe in it or ignorant at worst.

Let me tell you what i believe on the matter, although i am sure you don't give a damn.

The majority of the Holders or even people who can be labeled as ''slavers'' are in their majority harsh,disrespectful towards their slaves, many have been the times when extreme physical punishment were addressed to the slaves labeled as troublemakers and to the slaves who didn't wish to abide by the structure and beliefs of your Religion.

Now for that being the majority, there has to be a reason correct? Of course there are Holders who i am sure are liberal but liberal holders is some sort of an important debate right now in the Empire. Many Holders labeled as liberals in their practices have been accused of treason and have been punished for that.

Now as i said above there has to be a reason as to why this stands as a fact. I am willing to offer you 2 reasons.

1) Let us say that your God exists. If your God does exist then your(Amarrian society) actions are putting people away from your God thus weakening his Work and bringing a bad name upon His actions. Which means that you are proving to Him that you are incapable and non deserving of continuing His work in New Eden since you have made from day 1 of the Reclaiming, the rest of the 3 factions to either hate you, or put you aside as an Empire.

Which leads me to 2 conclusions:

a) Either i got this totally wrong and your God is truly happy with you and how you are ensuring his Spiritual dominance in new Eden, which if that is the case i am sure why the Amarrian society will never be accepted among the other 3 factions.

b) Either the Amarrian society needs to go under serious restructuring abolish slavery and pay the price of the war crimes against humanity.

2) The second reason has to do with Power. In the end of the day slavery and your Religion have granted the Amarrians more power than anything else. For that, whether you have been expecting it or not i shall make the use of the Scriptures and the book of Reclaiming.

Because i can not upload the whole book in here i shall assume that you do know what the book says.

Now if you read the book you will see that there is not a clear indication of any hostile actions needed to be taken by the Amarr in order to reclaim New Eden for their God. There may be some hints that can lead to the assumption that the book is talking about conducting war, however assumptions are not solid and crystal clear proof. Overall, the book speaks about spreading the word and actions of your God. It doesnt specifically say though HOW to do so.

But yet the initial and impulsive action taken by the Amarrians were to use military and cultural warfare in the name of their God. So we can see that although the Scriptures themselves didnt specifically say that the Amarrians needed to turn this into a bloody affair, they did. Ultimately Mr Amith i am sure yourself can agree with me that the word Reclaiming isn't supposed to be taken literally as if your God is truly great, he has no real need of the physical territories of New Eden.

Continues

Drengist-haan, I know that the scriptures, histories and legislation governing the use of Slavery within the Empire must seem baffling and complex. Even for myself, as a Commoner born and raised within the Khanid Kingdom, true understanding has come both late and only with difficulty. Since I have had to study this issue recently, let me try to pass some of that understanding on to you.

A very common misconception regarding Slavery is that it is intended to be a punishment. This is only natural since, at present, other than the children of existing Slaves the only new Slaves legally permitted within the Empire are Criminals and Heretics. What Slavery actually is, though, is a way of teaching Submission - not Submission to the Empress or Empire, but Submission to the Will of God.

Another misconception is that, since Slavery uses the twin teachers of hard discipline and hard work, it is maintained only through cruelty and greed. In fact we are taught that the keeping of Slaves is a duty and a burden upon those who are commanded to do so and the economic benefit is meant solely as a by-product of the type of work that can be done more efficiently and cheaply by machines, but is ideally suited to teaching that Submission I mentioned earlier. It is easy to point to incidences of excessive cruelty and profiteering , but it is equally easy to point at incidences of malevolence and corruption in ANY system that is run by human beings. To claim that the Lords Holder are immune from those same flaws is to put them on a higher pedestal than they would ever claim for themselves.

A further misconception is to start and end the study of Slavery within the Empire with the Matari where it is clearly controversial to claim that it has met with success. It is pointless to look at the use of Slavery without considering at least the Udorian, Ealur, Khanid and Ni-Kunni as well.

In the case of the Udorian and the Ni-Kunni it can be amply demonstrated that Slavery proved an efficient and fast means of integration into the Empire proper. The majority of my own people, the Khanid, never knew the Lash at all. None of my ancestors was a slave. To claim that Slavery has no justification and is counter-productive is to ignore these examples of success and the additional examples of the countless absorbed proto-civilisations.

At the same time, I have to agree that Slavery is not some panacea, a 'one-size-fits-all' solution to the problem of the Fallen. Whilst many point to the continuing problems with the Minmatar Republic, to my mind the clearest example of Slavery failing is the Ealur people. It is traditional to imagine that the Matari were too rebellious, or that their Tribal faiths were too ingrained for slavery to work - yet the Ammatar Mandate proves that Slavery has had, at least, partial success with them. The Ealur, on the other hand, have no history of rebellion. Nothing of their earlier culture remains. They have been slaves infinitely longer than the Matari and yet there is no population of Freed Ealur as there are with the Ni-Kunni and Khanid. Neither have they integrated genetically with the other bloodlines, as the Udorian have. The only words to use are 'abject failure'.

Slavery is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. It is a tool with a qualified track record of success, but if the Faithful are to gain any traction in our fight to Reclaim the souls of the Fallen, it cannot be our only tool. In the future the challenge is going to be discerning when 'Soft Power' is going to be more successful, when Diplomats and Missionaries will win more souls than Chain and Lash.

So why, then, the 24th Crusade? Especially when Imperial Law allows the taking of new slaves only from Prisoners of War and the Criminal fraternity? First of all, the 24th Crusade is a predictable reaction to the Tribal Liberation Force and it's capsuleer allies but, primarily, I think the answer lies within the soul of the Empire.

I know that you have been raised Caldari, Drengist-haan, raised by a non-believer and (I assume) by an apostate. I know that you do not share our Faith, but for the purposes of this explanation try to suspend that disbelief and imagine that you do. Imagine that you believe in a divine Creator. Imagine that you have accepted His Will. Look at the vastness of the Cluster and perceive the Fallen.

Set aside your pity for them because, being Human and Fallen, they would despise it. Instead imagine the sparks of their lives flickering into being, dimming and finally being extinguished and lost forever. Now remember that your people are charged with the salvation of these embers and see each one as a slap in the face and a further proof of your failure before God. How He must despise our sloth and our incompetence, when it results in the eternal loss of his children!

No, the Imperial Crusade is not always the most efficient form of Reclaiming, but even when it lacks the satisfaction of success it still provides the consolation of ACTION. With your new, Amarrian, eyes can you understand why finite and flawed human beings might choose it over the 'slow and steady' route?

As given by the official Historic Links http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Reclaiming#Khanid_encounter

Khanid encounter

An early turning point in the Reclaiming came when the Amarr first encountered the Khanid people. Militant, sturdy, and bearing a long-burning dislike of the more advanced Udorians, the Khanid jumped at the chance to join in the conquest. They also proved eager religious zealots, quickly converting to the Amarr religion and the promise of glory in God's service. [2]

With the assistance of the Khanid, the Amarr methodically conquered and enslaved the disparate Udorian states. By 20371 AD, the Udorians had been completely subsumed, leaving the Amarr to turn on the other, forgotten cultures of Athra. It took less than 200 years to finish their conquest of the planet, which the Amarr later renamed Amarr Prime. [1]


Spacefaring conquests

The fervor of the Reclaiming diminished as opportunities for conquest disappeared. When the Amarr rediscovered space travel, they located a nearly-working star gate in their home system. Viewing this as a sign from God that the Amarr Empire should seek out and conquer the entire galaxy, the Reclaiming was relaunched with renewed enthusiasm.[3]

Soon, they came across the Ealur in 21423 AD, the first of many primitive cultures they eventually subsumed. Many of the races they conquered have been forgotten, for they were too small and minor to be recorded as anything but footnotes to history, deemed worthy of nothing other than an eternity of slaving, and bred with existing slave stock until little of their ethnicity remained. One such tribe lived on the Ni-Kunni homeworld of Mishi IV; while the Ni-Kunni are remembered, this tribe was utterly crushed and reduced to mere half-breeds among multitudes.[4] Those whose cultures and languages were deemed worthy of saving were left to dusty old texts pored over only by aged scholars.[5]

The Ni-Kunni were conquered roughly a thousand years ago, but were mostly spared an extended tenure in slavery[6] thanks in part to the relatively quick discovery of the much more numerous Minmatar shortly after.

End of the link

So in the one hand we have the Khanid which as most links i do admit didnt joined after suffering that much as the Ni Kunni and the Minmatar did, and on the other hand we have imperialistic actions taken by the Amarrians against the Ni kunni and the Minmatar. So how much of a success the tool of slavery was, is highly debatable, especially given that 300 years ago the Khanid Kingdom seceded from the Empire.

As for the Holders and the Slaves.http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery

Methods of Control
Most slaves in the Empire are controlled simply by violence or the threat of such. Overseers constantly patrol slave populations, making sure they are doing work and not misbehaving. Slaves who are not doing as they should may be beaten, isolated, denied sufficient or high quality food and water, or punished in some other methods.[29] However, some slave populations, such as those working on space ships or in dangerous mining colonies, or particularly troublesome and rebellious slaves, require more stringent methods.

In recent years, the most popular form of slave control has been the Vitoc method. The Vitoc method involves two steps. First, a slave is infected with a viral agent known as Vitoxin. Next, the slave is given a drug known as Vitoc. Vitoc not only staves off the multitude of physical effects of Vitoxin, it also induces mild euphoria. In this way, slaves can come to regard the Vitoc as a reward rather than a method of control.[15]

This method was widely used by the time of the Elder War, which led to widespread chaos when Insorum, a permanent cure to Vitoxin, was deployed over slave worlds. The slaves, freed of their addiction, rebelled and joined the invaders against the Amarr.[18]

With the advent of Insorum, older methods of control have begun to regain popularity. Slave collars are a bulky piece of equipment that fits around a slave's neck. The collars are fitted with needles filled with a variety of chemicals, some deadly, others merely incapacitating. If necessary, overseers can remotely trigger the slave collars and inflict whatever punishment is deemed appropriate.[9]

Transcranial microcontrollers have seen limited use throughout the Empire. These small chips convince those implanted that they are experiencing a variety of situations; with slaves, this is typically to convince them they are not enslaved.[30] For many years, the chips were not used due to cost[31], but following the failure of Vitoc, they came into wider use. However, they are considered controversial in the Empire, as many believe they undermine the religious reasons the Amarr keep slaves.[32]

The slaver hound, a large canid, is often used on plantations and planetary populations. The animals, a native of Syrikos V, are typically allowed to roam free outside of fenced in areas. They are often trained to view slaves, particularly those running, as prey. Their mere presence dissuades slaves from attempting escape, as they can easily outrun a man and are intelligent enough to ambush prey.[13]

Continues

Mr. Drengist, if I may ask, what exactly is it that quantifies 'liberal' to mean 'good' and 'conservative' to mean 'abusive' ? Because that seems to be what you are implying, whereas I suspect that in many regards, especially in the eyes of Mr. Amith, the opposite is likely true, the the liberal holders more likely to have 'strayed from the path' as it were.

And, not that I agree with any of this, since I don't believe in the Amarrian God, but is not the point of slavery to be forced to learn submission the hard way, since those enslaved would not accept it the easy way? Yes, slaves in the Empire get beaten, but from the perspective of an Amarrian, this is done for their own good, in the context of saving their souls. From their perspective, provided that slavery is treated as a 'righteous' institution and that those using it for personal gain are furriered out, the ends justify the means since the end result is the salvation of the slave's soul.

Is that about right Mr. Amith?

My last points were not even near enough touching the subject of 'liberal' to mean 'good' and 'conservative' to mean 'abusive', thus what you think i am implying is wrong. My questions and points were as direct as possible.

My last points were simply pointing that slavery and how it is being exercised in the Empire has not been doing any good to the Empire. From the harsh implementations that are used to control the slave population to how the very notion of Slavery is affecting in a negative way the Intergalactic relations of the Empire with the rest factions and how Slavery among other things have been accounted as a prime fuel for the Minmatar to oppose and battle the Empire.

The only way i can see i have been touching that subject is simply by asking if Mr Amith perhaps thinks that a more liberal approach to Slavery in comparison to the ones being described by the historical links would be of much better use and more productive for the Empire, and that means that i am not asking him if he believes liberal to mean good, i am asking him if liberal means more productive for the Empire.

Now since Mr Amith has no desire to continue our discussion that is his right although i have not encountered in this OP any but one mention by him regarding slavery and that is the one i have quoted some posts before.

In case he has already done so, perhaps Mr Amith instead of being dismissive you could give me the links where you actually show to me where you have spoken about this matter? I dont follow the IGS every 10 minutes so it is only logical i may have lost this and even if i have done i apologize beforehand.

Thank you Mr Amith, i believe your attitude of granting me that request is something that demonstrates your excellent character that i am sure you possess and it was much more polite than just being dismissive.

Good luck with the Order of Light's Retribution as well. I am looking forward debating or speaking with you.