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wormholes - a question on identification
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Atlas Phoenix
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-10-15 05:31:07 UTC
I'm having serious trouble wrapping my brain around something. It centers on the list of wormhole identification found at the bottom of this page: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Wormholes.

I came across a K162, which is listed as an exit. I tried to get clarification what this meant from a helpful corp mate but I think we both ended up just getting frustrated with each other.What? What I don't understand is, how can a wormhole have an end that is only identifiable as an exit.

It's not as simple as saying "it has an entrance, therefore it has an exit". Well, sure, but that exit is also an entrance, just as that entrance is also an exit. Wormholes don't "start" in one particular place, they're supposed to be simultaneous openings in space that connect 2 areas regardless of their relative physical distance. It's like as if the wall between your house and your garage collapsed and you had a "portal" to go between the 2. If you started in your house and moved to your garage, you would call it the entrance to your garage. If you started in your garage and moved into your house you would call it an entrance into your house.

The issue that I have is that a K162 is refered to on the list as an "endpoint", but how can that be? a wormhole is essentially a tube with no space of it's own, it's just an opening, like a door frame. It has an entrance and an exit on both ends. 2 entrances and 2 exits.

How is it you can tell what it is on one side but not on the other. As the corp mate explained, it's more like the designation K162 is saying that the destination is an unknown. Well if that's so, then fine, list it as unknown, don't call it an exit or an end point. Or if we're meant to know what all of the designations mean (as per that list) then remove the K162 designation as an error. The only way it would make sense for the wormhole to have an endpoint is if wormholes were one way travel devices, in which case they would have a start and a finish, an entrance and an exit. But since, as it was explained to me, they are all 2 way devices, your exit can be your re-entrance. Is the issue simply that not all wormholes are 2-way?

I'm missing some key piece of information needed for this to make sense to me, clearly. Please help fill me in, and thanks in advance.
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#2 - 2011-10-15 05:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Think of a wormhole as a door, and when that door is opened - the wormhole is spawned -the side that is opened is the front of the door, and the other side is the back of the door.

The K162 is always the back of the door, any other designation is the front of the door.

The most important aspect of a K162 is the knowledge that the door was opened on the other side.

Some examples:


  • I'm scanning in a hisec system. I find a wormhole that says K162 on it, I know that someone on the other side of the door opened it - someone on the other side spawned that wormhole. When I do a show info on the K162, it tells me that it leads to "deadly dangerous unknown space" so I know that it leads to a class 6 wormhole.

  • I'm inside a class one wormhole, and while scanning I find two other wormholes, one is labeled N110 and the other is labeled K162. I know that someone else opened that K162 door from the other side (and likely popped into this side of the door and took a peek around).

  • Let's say I'm living in that same class one wormhole, and it has a static exit to hisec that is always N110. I'm sitting in my cloaky a few dozen km from the N110 wormhole when it suddenly collapses. I drop probes and scan, and find the new N110 door. When I warp to that N110 wormhole, it is spawned the moment I load it on grid. The spawning of that N110 creates a K162 on the other side of the door. Since I know I was the first to load that N110 on grid, I know what time I opened the door - what time I spawned the wormhole - and have a good idea what time it will next collapse. Whoever warps to the other side of the door - the K162 side of the door - will never have that level of certainty.


Most people who *live* in wormhole space refer to the wormholes - the doors - from the perspective of living inside. For most of those who live in wormhole space, the side of the door on the inside (i.e., N110) is the exit - cause it leads out of the system - and the other side of the door (i.e., K162) is the entrance.

Without some sort of identification schema for wormhole types and also which side of the wormhole you are on, exploration would be somewhat more frustrating... and living inside wormhole space would be far more logistically challenging than it already is.

I hope this helps! Let me know if you need further clarification!

GG

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Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-10-15 05:49:50 UTC
When a wormhole is first scanned down and warped to after it spawns, that side is the entrance.

Its a game mechanic thing dude.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Atlas Phoenix
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-15 07:11:17 UTC
OK well after that explanation I can now understand how a GAME MECHANIC wormhole works, so ty for that. I'm likely not the first person to question that, given the long history of the game. Sounds like it works like a drill, you start on one side of the piece of wood and dril through to the backside (the K162 side).

The game doesn't make wormholes act like true wormholes would, as a simultaneous "opening" if you will between 2 points in space. They're not supposed to be tunnels like you see on star trek, they're not supposed to have their own "area" or volume, they're not a 3D thing, they're just a phenomenon of passing from one area directly into another. Like walking though a doorway in walmart and right into sears, even though they're across the street from each other. Portal (the game) ftw.

So at least now that I know how the game has created them and how they're supposed to work, that makes sense to me. Thanks again =)
Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-10-15 07:25:57 UTC
Atlas Phoenix wrote:

The game doesn't make wormholes act like true wormholes would, as a simultaneous "opening" if you will between 2 points in space. They're not supposed to be tunnels like you see on star trek, they're not supposed to have their own "area" or volume, they're not a 3D thing, they're just a phenomenon of passing from one area directly into another. Like walking though a doorway in walmart and right into sears, even though they're across the street from each other. Portal (the game) ftw.


Dude, you talk as if wormhole have actually been observed and we actually know anything at about them. We don't. You don't know if the opening of two sides of a wormhole is instantaneous from ANY frame of reference, let alone a universal one (unlikely).

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer
Orlacc
#6 - 2011-10-15 20:46:45 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Atlas Phoenix wrote:

The game doesn't make wormholes act like true wormholes would, as a simultaneous "opening" if you will between 2 points in space. They're not supposed to be tunnels like you see on star trek, they're not supposed to have their own "area" or volume, they're not a 3D thing, they're just a phenomenon of passing from one area directly into another. Like walking though a doorway in walmart and right into sears, even though they're across the street from each other. Portal (the game) ftw.


Dude, you talk as if wormhole have actually been observed and we actually know anything at about them. We don't. You don't know if the opening of two sides of a wormhole is instantaneous from ANY frame of reference, let alone a universal one (unlikely).



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