These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

A working Stock Market
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-09-08 06:44:04 UTC
Stock market for EVE is a terrible idea and will never work.

Dear god even in the real world it doesent work due to human greed and false play. Think how well it would operate in a totally riskfree system like EVE where you can be 20 people at the same time and scamming is the preferred way to operate.

Nothing personal but stock market in eve has no basics to function.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#22 - 2012-09-08 07:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Cedo Nulli wrote:
Stock market for EVE is a terrible idea and will never work.

Dear god even in the real world it doesent work due to human greed and false play.


Last time I checked, stocks looked like they worked.


Also, non functional stocks in EvE are a major design failure.

In RL we have a more brutal sandbox than in EvE yet we managed to introduce accountability and responsibility and consequences.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
#23 - 2012-09-09 17:52:02 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Last time I checked, stocks looked like they worked.

In RL we have a more brutal sandbox than in EvE yet we managed to introduce accountability and responsibility and consequences.


Sadly you can't arrest people for scamming in EVE. Hence, no consequences.


Cedo Nulli wrote:
Stock market for EVE is a terrible idea and will never work.

Dear god even in the real world it doesent work due to human greed and false play.


CCP should have bailed out E-Bank, IMO Big smile
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#24 - 2012-09-09 20:56:20 UTC
Cheque Please wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Last time I checked, stocks looked like they worked.

In RL we have a more brutal sandbox than in EvE yet we managed to introduce accountability and responsibility and consequences.


Sadly you can't arrest people for scamming in EVE. Hence, no consequences.


They can't only because CCP does not want.

Try scamming in another game, you quickly get the stuff removed from your possession and your account banned.
Even in EvE, if you scam at character trading or at donations for charity then you will be busted. So they are already using selective freedom.

Now, EvE is sandbox and tralala but the push to make it sandbox is not complete without giving tools to forfeit the right to scam with impunity.

Since this is meant to be a sandbox and people are meant to be able to create their content, tools should be given to also be able to create opt in content like functional corporations including consequences for scamming.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Whang'Lo
Cosmically Irrelevant
#25 - 2012-09-10 09:25:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Whang'Lo
Since this game is all about "corporations" having a working functional stock market makes total sense.

I believe that it could be done in such a way as to be it reasonably difficult to scam with. Let's not forget that
people scam in the "real world stock market".

1. A corporation would have to have a certain amount of players in it before it could be publicly traded. Say 100.

2. Simple rules are established at the time of incorporation in regards to the stock. Such as:

How much and often the dividends can be changed and absolute minimums on dividends.

How many extra shares can be issued and if at all. etc.

3. A special corporate tax is imposed on all members. The details would be like:

This tax would be flexible and setup at the time of incorporation.

The tax would be placed in a special wallet that is "totally untouchable" by anyone including the CEO.

Dividends would be paid from this wallet.

In the event that the corporation is dissolved then the wallet would be split amongst the outstanding shareholders.

In the event of additional shares being issued the option is given to a shareholder to cash out his % of the wallet
before adjustment of new shares.

ISK could be transferred to this wallet in a one-way transaction, but never taken away from.

4. The absolute base price of the stock would always be easy to calculate. As it would always be "ISK in wallet divided
by outstanding shares". Anything over this and you know you are speculating, and anything below would be free ISK.

[u]A Paranoid is just someone with all the facts - William Burroughs[/u]
iskflakes
#26 - 2012-09-10 13:09:33 UTC
Stocks in EVE do not work. The reason is for them to work you need some kind of accounting (working out how much the corp has earned) and you need a way to stop somebody robbing the corp, and right now there is no such mechanism and never will be.

I think there is a mechanism to fund a corp which might work though.

Instead of corp shares, make corp bonds which are underwritten first by the CEO and then by Concord. They would have a fixed interest rate and maturity date, and the corporation name stamped on them. The bonds would be secured against the CEO character rather than the corporation's assets (this is the big difference), though interest payments would be made from the corp wallet. The size of bond you are able to create is proportional to the number of skillpoints the CEO character has (1 billion ISK per 2 million skillpoints, for example). This is necessary as the bonds will be underwritten by Concord. If the CEO is unable to pay an interest payment using the corporation wallet then the money is taken from their personal wallet. If the personal wallet goes negative then Concord pays the investors their payment (minus the interest) and regains this money from the CEO (plus the interest) when they finally regain a positive wallet. The CEO character can not be abandoned as we have required it to have significant skillpoints (character transfers are not possible for characters with a negative wallet as far as I'm aware).

Why does this work?
Investors are able to invest in a corporation in a way that is secure. They risk losing their interest if the corporation defaults, so there is an incentive to only invest in legitimate businesses. They will not lose their initial money. A corporation is able to raise money but the CEO takes a personal risk. It becomes the CEO's responsibility to ensure bond interest payments are made.

-
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#27 - 2012-09-10 15:57:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
I do not see why the CEO with the negative wallet could not be abandoned. The player makes an alt CEO on a new account, skills just enough to issue bonds, sells them to their own main, then transfers the sale funds back to their main. The player then abandon the new account (stops paying the subscription). The player waits for default, then goes to CONCORD for recovery of the initial bond sale funds.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
iskflakes
#28 - 2012-09-10 17:03:54 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
I do not see why the CEO with the negative wallet could not be abandoned. The player makes an alt CEO on a new account, skills just enough to issue bonds, sells them to their own main, then transfers the sale funds back to their main. The player then abandon the new account (stops paying the subscription). The player waits for default, then goes to CONCORD for recovery of the initial bond sale funds.


That's why the size of bond you can create is proportional to your skillpoints -- exactly to prevent that kind of abuse. A 0 skillpoint alt could create a 10,000 ISK bond at best. The scaling would be chosen to make it more profitable to sell a character than to create a dummy bond and abandon it.

-
Serenity Saul
Ship Spinning Investments Inc.
#29 - 2012-09-10 17:35:44 UTC
We can already trade shares, it's just painful and requires a 3rd party.

Adding a stock market would change little to the fact that we can trade them, so I can't see how it would be more broken than it currently is.

I know for a fact that CCP has investigated this possibility but didn't make it for game design reasons, however said game designer was unable to convince me why it was bad. I'm still waiting.
Previous page12