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Skill Remapping

First post
Author
Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-09-10 08:55:16 UTC
Hey, this might have been suggested before, maybe not.

I had a thought, in a world where skills are mapped directly into the human brain, and where the technology exists to remap character's attributes to whatever you desire, why then does the ability not exist to remap skills.

By remapping skills I mean, all but the base character generation skills are removed, and the skill points are placed in a skill point pool that can be used to instantly purchases ranks of any skill you desire. This would of course require you to repurchase any skill books for skills you wanted to learn.

I can't see where this is a difficult task to add into the game, they have already done such years ago when they removed the learning skills from the game, and gave players a skill point pool equivalent to the amount of skill points invested in the learning skills, which was able to be used to purchase skill ranks instantly.

Obviously this should not be a widely available tool, as it could be abused, such as constantly remapping different skills for PvE and PvP, and Mining, etc... If this was a paid service, controls could be put in place, such as a cool down on the use of the service, or another option would be to follow the current Neural Remap system of one free remap every year, and 2 bonus remaps given during character generation.

Obviously the older the pilot becomes, the less this will be an issue as they will have the skill points to specialise in multiple areas and be good at all. This service would primarily assist, newer characters, this is because Eve has so many career choices you can make when you start out, and sometimes it is difficult to know what to choose.

For example with my first character I spent the first 6 weeks of her life, changing from scouting/exploration, mining, research and production, salvage, and industrial ships for transporting goods, before finally choosing to become a combat pilot. I have spent the next 3 months on her trying to correct the character from the mistakes I made in the first six weeks of training, and as such have a four and a half month old character, that has mediocre combat skills, can not run anything above level 2 missions without major difficulties, let alone run things like incursions that other characters my age are starting to do. My character can not even fly battleships yet, what I wouldn't give to be able to go into a memory chamber, and reset my learned skills and this time focus heavily on combat skills.

Obviously given another 6 months or more training I will have very good combat skills, and will be able to do PvP and Incursions and all the good stuff, plus of course, I would also be able to salvage missions well, scan down sites, and lots of other cool stuff. Personally though I would like to be able to do combat now, and learn those other skills later when I have more time to devote to non-necessary skills.

Anyways, this post is fast becoming a wall of text, so I will bring my post to an end now. I do hope this does not become a flame-fest as I don't want to see unrestricted re-skilling as I believe that would be a game breaker, but I can see that with tight controls it could be useful, in particular to new players.

Thank you for taking the time to read my suggestion, and I welcome any constructive comments on my post.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#2 - 2012-09-10 09:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jint Hikaru
Quote:
Thank you for taking the time to read my suggestion, and I welcome any constructive comments on my post.


You really need to take the time to search to see if this had been posted before,

Skill remapping is a horrible idea.
Please don't suggest this again.

EDIT: also... a 7 day old character making suggestions that destroy one of the fundimental cornerstones of the game????
Either play the game a little or post with your main.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-09-10 09:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayla Sunji
Game destroying, interesting, as I stated, this has actually been done in the past.

My main account was active, and I had a character way back, when the learning skills were still in the game, and he was given a skill pool of almost 4 million skill points to place in other skills when the learning skills were removed.

I personally don't see how this is any more game breaking then allowing neural remapping of attributes, or are you against that too?

Personally I much preferred the old system back when race, and bloodline effected what attributes you started with, and school and philosophy effected what skills you started out with, and of course back then attributes could not be changed at all beyond character generation screen without the need to learn skills to improve them. Back then character generation was meaningful, now its down to a matter of aesthetic appearance.

PS: I posted this on a 7 day alt because a friend of mine recommended not posting using my main character, why, I don't know, just following their advice.
Itar Sheep
The Black Sheep Inc
#4 - 2012-09-10 09:29:36 UTC
Kayla Sunji wrote:
Game destroying, interesting, as I stated, this has actually been done in the past.

My main account was active, and I had a character way back, when the learning skills were still in the game, and he was given a skill pool of almost 4 million skill points to place in other skills when the learning skills were removed.

I personally don't see how this is any more game breaking then allowing neural remapping of attributes, or are you against that too?

Personally I much preferred the old system back when race, and bloodline effected what attributes you started with, and school and philosophy effected what skills you started out with, and of course back then attributes could not be changed at all beyond character generation screen without the need to learn skills to improve them. Back then character generation was meaningful, now its down to a matter of aesthetic appearance.

PS: I posted this on a 7 day alt because a friend of mine recommended not posting using my main character, why, I don't know, just following their advice.


It has only been done in the past when skills have been removed from the game. To be able to take a 50m SP char and remap their skills, weeding out the mistakes made and changing the specialiaztions, would be game breaking. An industrial char could become a PVP skill god and vice-versa.

This has been touted before, its always been shot down for the obvious reasons.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-09-10 09:44:50 UTC
Not then, not now, not ever.
Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-09-10 09:45:00 UTC
Itar Sheep wrote:
Kayla Sunji wrote:
Game destroying, interesting, as I stated, this has actually been done in the past.

My main account was active, and I had a character way back, when the learning skills were still in the game, and he was given a skill pool of almost 4 million skill points to place in other skills when the learning skills were removed.

I personally don't see how this is any more game breaking then allowing neural remapping of attributes, or are you against that too?

Personally I much preferred the old system back when race, and bloodline effected what attributes you started with, and school and philosophy effected what skills you started out with, and of course back then attributes could not be changed at all beyond character generation screen without the need to learn skills to improve them. Back then character generation was meaningful, now its down to a matter of aesthetic appearance.

PS: I posted this on a 7 day alt because a friend of mine recommended not posting using my main character, why, I don't know, just following their advice.


It has only been done in the past when skills have been removed from the game. To be able to take a 50m SP char and remap their skills, weeding out the mistakes made and changing the specialiaztions, would be game breaking. An industrial char could become a PVP skill god and vice-versa.

This has been touted before, its always been shot down for the obvious reasons.


I actually know a 47 million skill point pilot that began as an industry pilot, and has the ability to research T2 BPO's, he can also mine, and is very effective in PvP. My original point is, after a certain point, this ability becomes moot, as with enough skill points you can specialize in multiple areas and be good at them all.

This ability would help those pilots with say 5 or 6 million skill points, that started playing the game, and were told, learning mining to make ISK, only to spend 1.5-2 million skill points in mining to discover they don't actually like mining.

But if it is game breaking in the ability to completely change a 50 million skill point pilot, that is the whole purpose of safe guards being put in place to ensure its not abused. How about for example a safe guard in place was, can not be used once a pilot has reached 10 million skill points or higher, or another example when a character is 6 months old.

I suggested it, as more and more customization has been allowed to players, re-sculpts, neural remaps, the next logical step is re-skilling.

Why are neural remaps allowed, wouldn't it be best if in character generation you had to set your attributes aka first neural remap, and then you were stuck with training times based on that neural map for the rest of your career. At one stage of the game, that was how the game was designed. Allowing neural remaps allows for min/maxing a character, you can design a skill plan that requires say intelligence and memory for half the plan, so you map for that, maximizing skill point earning, then the second half of the plan concentrates on perception and willpower, so you remap to perception and willpower, and are able to learn those skills at an accelerated rate also. How is this not also game breaking?

Sorry not trying to be argumentative, simply trying to counter points that are put forward to advance my case.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-09-10 09:53:37 UTC
Remaps are not game breaking due to once you are out of remaps you are stuck with your attributes for a year.
If it takes you a month to two months to figure out you don't like mining you may have problems, mining is one of those things that you either love or hate, few people stop and think "Ya know I was going to go on a PvP roam today but screw it I would rather mine instead."

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-09-10 09:56:41 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Remaps are not game breaking due to once you are out of remaps you are stuck with your attributes for a year.
If it takes you a month to two months to figure out you don't like mining you may have problems, mining is one of those things that you either love or hate, few people stop and think "Ya know I was going to go on a PvP roam today but screw it I would rather mine instead."


And in my original post I suggested exactly the same thing for skill maps, I never once suggested, resetting skills every second day. I suggest one allowed per year, with 2 free ones given on character creation which is exactly the same as neural remaps. If this is not over powered for neural remaps, why is it over powered for skill re-skilling?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-09-10 09:58:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Because in 4-5 months you would reach your 6mill SP cap and would not be able to use them

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-09-10 10:02:20 UTC
And so reaching the cap in 3-6 months and not being able to use them anymore, makes it overpowered. Sorry that is a logic I can't follow.

To me that sounds like you are saying only allowing remaps to new characters where the impact is minimal makes it over powered.

Like I said, I am reading all the responses, and am asking questions so that I better understand your argument. The purpose being if an opposing argument makes sense to me, and is logical, then I will change my opinion, that is the nature of debate.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-09-10 10:06:45 UTC
In that short on an amount of time what is the point? Getting rid on the sp you put into industry? Skills train fairly fast so people can get a feel for what they are going to be doing in that area before they specialize in it, train the skill to level 1 or 2 and check it out, if you don't like it it was only around 2 hours if you do like it keep going. To specialize in something then try it is nobody's fault but your own.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-09-10 10:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayla Sunji
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
In that short on an amount of time what is the point? Getting rid on the sp you put into industry? Skills train fairly fast so people can get a feel for what they are going to be doing in that area before they specialize in it, train the skill to level 1 or 2 and check it out, if you don't like it it was only around 2 hours if you do like it keep going. To specialize in something then try it is nobody's fault but your own.


Same argument could go for neural remaps, once you have set your attribute points, if you don't like them later because they learn skills too slow, its no ones fault but your own. Neural remaps were not always in the game, when I originally played, attributes were derived from race and bloodline, and you were stuck with them, so why not get rid of neural remaps. It falls under the same argument.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-09-10 10:18:17 UTC
Kayla Sunji wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
In that short on an amount of time what is the point? Getting rid on the sp you put into industry? Skills train fairly fast so people can get a feel for what they are going to be doing in that area before they specialize in it, train the skill to level 1 or 2 and check it out, if you don't like it it was only around 2 hours if you do like it keep going. To specialize in something then try it is nobody's fault but your own.


Same argument could go for neural remaps, once you have set your skill attributes, if you don't like them later because they learn skills too slow, its no ones fault but your own. Neural remaps were not always in the game, when I originally played, attributes were derived from race and bloodline, and you were stuck with them, so why not get rid of neural remaps. It falls under the same argument.


How? You are asking to wipe clean all skills up to 6mill and then place them where ever you want, a remap can be a great benefit or a big mistake, most who remap have a skill plan that lasts for at least one year, so when it is done they can map back to neutral or begin a second remap.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-09-10 10:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayla Sunji
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
How? You are asking to wipe clean all skills up to 6mill and then place them where ever you want, a remap can be a great benefit or a big mistake, most who remap have a skill plan that lasts for at least one year, so when it is done they can map back to neutral or begin a second remap.


Like I said in an earlier post, a limit could be placed on it so it could not be used on a character that is over 6 months old, or 10 million skill points, whichever comes first, which would make what you just suggested impossible anyways. I would go so far as to even say, forget the timed remap, at character creation, you are given 2 remaps, which can never be replaced, and once the character reaches 10 million skill points or 6 months old, the remaps expire and are removed from the character.

I appreciate the fact that everyone has offered their opinions, and I respect all the arguments you have made, and there have been some good ones, I just have not found one yet that I have been unable to counter.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-09-10 10:27:19 UTC
This would also completely remove the need for different races. There are almost already pointless this would remove all need. Reason being you train for 6 months in caldari only to figure out they are not the best for pvp minmatar is, so you just skill remap for minmatar equipment. They would be better off giving new players a few hundred thousand free skill points to try out a few things before they invested too much time into any one area.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-09-10 10:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayla Sunji
Well my original post says it would remove all but the character generator skills, so if you chose Caldari, and you remapped, you would still have Caldari Frigate 2, and Missile Launcher Operation etc.. so it would be in no way any different then me creating a Caldari pilot right now and immediately training for Minmatar ships and Projectile Turrets. So how does this make races any more redundant then they already are?

Your second point of giving a few hundred thousand skill points, go back to 2006 and you got exactly that, back then characters started with 900,000 skill points. Back then, attributes were based on Race and Bloodline, and starting skills were based on School and Philosophy. Back then character generation selections really made a difference to your character. Are you suggesting that we should go back to that?

Because personally I would love that, because back then, Race, Bloodline, School and Philosophy choices in character creation really mattered, instead of just changing the way you look.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-09-10 10:43:58 UTC
Other than the fact that you would have a 6 months worth of skill points that you would not have as a new caldari pilot.
From what I can gather you dumped a bunch of time and sill points into in industry and now you want them back because you don't like mining. I can say from personal experience that mining is a good supplemental source of income. When you have nothing better to do jump into a retriever and afk mine. Other than that biomass your self and start new if you only have 3-6 months of skill points you won't be to heart broken for too long, if you play the game for more than 6 more months that is

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Kayla Sunji
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-09-10 10:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kayla Sunji
You know, I respected your arguments up until your last, because they were thought out, and had a logic behind them, and were based on facts and opinions.

However you fell into the trap of all those that no longer have a counter to a point and instead trash the reputation of the person making the point. When it comes to that point, the debates ceases being a debate and becomes an argument, and I am not interested in arguing. You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, just as I am entitled to my own.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-09-10 10:55:53 UTC
I realized I was getting too tired too late, I'm out of this until I get some rest, in another 4 hours.......

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

ISD BiscuitThief
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#20 - 2012-09-10 11:47:31 UTC
Lets try and keep things civil and ontopic please.

On that note, I have removed a post that was not ontopic.

ISD BiscuitThief Ensign Community Communication Liasons (CCLs) Interstellar Service Department

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