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Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#681 - 2012-09-10 05:02:04 UTC
Antoine Jordan wrote:
Aleks: You were not elected simply to raise issues with CCP and hope for eventual fixes. You are tasked with getting timely fixes to pressing issues, and CSM7 has NOT delivered on that front. On top of that, the majority of the communication that has come from CSM7 to the player base has been about the CSM as an entity, not about what you guys have actually gotten done. Do you seriously not understand why players are dissatisfied with your (as a group) performance?

No, but CCP is getting great use of them. For example, we can scream at them instead of CCP. An excellent flameshield.

However, never mind that, the shield enjoys being roasted, and needs to make sure someone who can actually put out the fires, who isn't them, will not come in to take their place.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Rh'jamiz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#682 - 2012-09-10 05:02:26 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
CliveWarren wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
You are bad at using forums.


awwwwww, poor muffin, we're not appreciating how totally hard he and his **** goons friends are kind-of-sort-of-not-really advocating on our behalf!

::hands Clive a tissue::

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves. This despite several attempts from several different CSM, yes including me a bunch, to get the "OP says **** Goons" crowd to accept when they've made a good point successfully and let things move on so a better proposal than the initial one can be developed.


Are you trying to paint your and your fellow CSMs' posts as conceding the point that the Proposal is **** Goons and also Crappy? Because all it looks like you're doing is defending it.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#683 - 2012-09-10 05:03:06 UTC
RDevz wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves.


"We don't like the public's opinion, so we're going to go full steam ahead, anyway."


More like "The Public said we were incompetent, I have no argument; let's **** it up for the next CSM so we won't be so bad".
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#684 - 2012-09-10 05:03:58 UTC
RDevz wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves.

"We don't like the public's opinion, so we're going to go full steam ahead, anyway."

You should've just done that from the start.

So ram though the Anti-goons voting system. I'm sure you'll have fun. Better start trying to draft some form of reeducation camp subforum too. As everyone knows from the goonfleet forums what a hellban is, hahaha

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#685 - 2012-09-10 05:04:25 UTC
Xolve wrote:
RDevz wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves.

"We don't like the public's opinion, so we're going to go full steam ahead, anyway."

More like "The Public said we were incompetent, I have no argument; let's **** it up for the next CSM so we won't be so bad".

No, no.

They will be the next CSM.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Win Sui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#686 - 2012-09-10 05:05:00 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
CliveWarren wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
You are bad at using forums.


awwwwww, poor muffin, we're not appreciating how totally hard he and his **** goons friends are kind-of-sort-of-not-really advocating on our behalf!

::hands Clive a tissue::

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves. This despite several attempts from several different CSM, yes including me a bunch, to get the "OP says **** Goons" crowd to accept when they've made a good point successfully and let things move on so a better proposal than the initial one can be developed.


You just don't get it do you? It's not about whether we've successfully made a good point, it's about the fact that you (the CSM) seem to feel that this election proposal is more important than other issues. It's not. Your job isn't to raise bugs to CCP - we've done that. It's to agitate and drive changes so the game improves - to articulate that something like an overview bug, while not a sucking chest wound - is still pretty ******. And then to drive hard on the sucking chest wounds.

Every second spent on this asinine proposal was a second not spent on something useful. That's why people think it's a joke and you're incompetent. The **** goons aspect was just icing on the "keep us in power" cake.
Smoke Adian
#687 - 2012-09-10 05:05:50 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves.


Pretty sure this is exactly what CCP said internally every time they decided to push a change thru that ended in a public apology.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#688 - 2012-09-10 05:05:58 UTC
Rh'jamiz wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves.

Are you trying to paint your and your fellow CSMs' posts as conceding the point that the Proposal is **** Goons and also Crappy? Because all it looks like you're doing is defending it.

He's not defending it, just letting us know to bend over because it'll just be rammed so far up ...

you know what I mean. They desire a very one sided interaction. They dictate, we shred our votes.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#689 - 2012-09-10 05:06:08 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
RDevz wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Poetic Stanziel: Happy CCP threw out 10,000 votes.


How does CD-"STV" stop CCP from dismissing someone after the election results have been announced?

Why are you quoting me with that question? I already said I don't think it does in two posts.

There does need to be an acceptable way to deal with that circumstance though, the Mitanni's case should not be repeated. If it's not on the candidate end, something on the voter end then. Perhaps an "emergency preference" where your vote would go to that second guy if and only if your first choice was somehow incapacitated?

Throwing out ideas for the handful of people reading/replying constructively.

Perhaps the matter of a CSM Candidate Replacement in the event of an elected member's removal could be its own separate thread, that way productive discussion could be had on a legitimate issue without it getting mired in this attempt to meddle with the electoral process. It would come across as an earnest attempt at dialogue instead of being inserted as a distraction from a larger issue. If you want to make the thread on it, I'd be happy to talk about it (and probably support it)

Missed this one.

I had considered it. But at this point, it feels a little hard to believe any further attempt at engagement would be anything other than toxic. It wasn't really a distraction before, the issue was p much settled as far as i could see. If it wasnt enough to get some real discussion going, i dont see how its own thread would help. Probably just get the same people posting the same kind of spergy replies in there too.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#690 - 2012-09-10 05:07:17 UTC
Smoke Adian wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves.

Pretty sure this is exactly what CCP said internally every time they decided to push a change thru that ended in a public apology.

Can someone link me that "greed is good" memo.

I mean seriously, you shouldn't be saying this openly to us. Just convince CCP in private that they should help you rig the elections. Thus far, you've been an excellent CSM for CCP, saying things, not trying to push them and taking all the heat.

I'm sure they'll oblige.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
CliveWarren
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#691 - 2012-09-10 05:10:34 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I had considered it. But at this point, it feels a little hard to believe any further attempt at engagement would be anything other than toxic. It wasn't really a distraction before, the issue was p much settled as far as i could see. If it wasnt enough to get some real discussion going, i dont see how its own thread would help. Probably just get the same people posting the same kind of spergy replies in there too.


Translation: There's actually people active in these forums that are smart enough to see through our transparent bullshit, so we're just going to quit and force whatever through anyway.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#692 - 2012-09-10 05:13:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
I mean seriously, you shouldn't be saying this openly to us. Just convince CCP in private that they should help you rig the elections. Thus far, you've been an excellent CSM for CCP, saying things, not trying to push them and taking all the heat.

I'm sure they'll oblige.


This thread has literally gone the way of every American Political Spoof (read: The Campaign, The Dictator, et al)

"Who do we have that is utterly controllable, mold-able, stupid, and will do as we say?"
Win Sui
State War Academy
Caldari State
#693 - 2012-09-10 05:13:46 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
RDevz wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

Poetic Stanziel: Happy CCP threw out 10,000 votes.


How does CD-"STV" stop CCP from dismissing someone after the election results have been announced?

Why are you quoting me with that question? I already said I don't think it does in two posts.

There does need to be an acceptable way to deal with that circumstance though, the Mitanni's case should not be repeated. If it's not on the candidate end, something on the voter end then. Perhaps an "emergency preference" where your vote would go to that second guy if and only if your first choice was somehow incapacitated?

Throwing out ideas for the handful of people reading/replying constructively.

Perhaps the matter of a CSM Candidate Replacement in the event of an elected member's removal could be its own separate thread, that way productive discussion could be had on a legitimate issue without it getting mired in this attempt to meddle with the electoral process. It would come across as an earnest attempt at dialogue instead of being inserted as a distraction from a larger issue. If you want to make the thread on it, I'd be happy to talk about it (and probably support it)

Missed this one.

I had considered it. But at this point, it feels a little hard to believe any further attempt at engagement would be anything other than toxic. It wasn't really a distraction before, the issue was p much settled as far as i could see. If it wasnt enough to get some real discussion going, i dont see how its own thread would help. Probably just get the same people posting the same kind of spergy replies in there too.


Look dude - why is this even a priority? Seriously. A satisfactory answer as to why the CSM is even working on this vs. almost anything else has yet to be produced. How about you start there?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#694 - 2012-09-10 05:14:11 UTC
CliveWarren wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I had considered it. But at this point, it feels a little hard to believe any further attempt at engagement would be anything other than toxic. It wasn't really a distraction before, the issue was p much settled as far as i could see. If it wasnt enough to get some real discussion going, i dont see how its own thread would help. Probably just get the same people posting the same kind of spergy replies in there too.

Translation: There's actually people active in these forums that are smart enough to see through our transparent bullshit, so we're just going to quit and force whatever through anyway.

Smarten the *** Up, and next time be better at the following skills:
1) Not being so obvious when putting down your intentions
2) Lie early, often and never admit that you're caught in it
3) Don't mess around when many people start pointing out you're wrong.
4) Simply leave (can we think of people that have done this, in this thread?) when it's clearly a lost cause
5) Always have another route you can take to (more effectively) sneak though or just go straight for the objective.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
SavageBastard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#695 - 2012-09-10 05:15:13 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Jake Rivers wrote:
Oh and stop screwing around CSM, there are some serious game issues you guys keep failing to address to CCP.

Name em?



There's this news website making millions of dollars by reporting EVE events in a biased manner I think something should be done.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#696 - 2012-09-10 05:15:45 UTC
CliveWarren wrote:
Translation: There's actually people active in these forums that are smart enough to see through our transparent bullshit, so we're just going to quit and force whatever through anyway.



The underlying problem being, they can muster the :effort: to push a ****** voting reform through; but can't be asked to even think about bothering with literally anything of any importance (bugs, imbalances, broken mechanics, etc). Even after asking for examples, still didn't see the error in their judgment.

It's a sad day for anyone that voted for Trebor or Aleks.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#697 - 2012-09-10 05:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD BiscuitThief
Win Sui wrote:
You just don't get it do you? It's not about whether we've successfully made a good point, it's about the fact that you (the CSM) seem to feel that this election proposal is more important than other issues.

You're right, i dont get it. Because nothing was done to signal Trebors election proposal was more important than any other issue and I have no idea how someone would get that impression unless they wanted that to use as ammo for trolling. There was no fanfare, no promotion, no hype, nothing. Trebor threw something together so discussion could get started, a thread was put up, and it exploded. If anything, the criticism should be we didn't spend ENOUGH time on it since there's 35 pages of people [complaining about (?)] the initial idea instead of using it as a jump off point for a larger discussion as I had originally hoped.

It wasn't our most important issue and it still isn't. While I personally feel making some improvements between now and the next election is important and this conversation is worthwhile, the most important thing CSM is doing would be our current engagement in the stakeholder experiment. Unfortunately we cant make detailed threads about that yet for obvious reasons, we're pretty much just allowed to say the experiment/trial laid out in the minutes has now started.

I dunno, implying it was our most important thing or that we tried to make it our most important thing just seem out of place. I wouldnt even put "electoral reform" in the top 3 of active discussions going on right now (or at least before this thread blew up).

Edit: Pardon the intrusion, but I thought that I should let you know that I have modified an unfortunate type in your original and replaced it with something a little more appropriate - ISD BiscuitThief

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#698 - 2012-09-10 05:16:43 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
All this threadnought has accomplished has derailed any hope of public discussion and provided encouragement for CSM/CCP to figure things out ourselves. This despite several attempts from several different CSM, yes including me a bunch, to get the "OP says **** Goons" crowd to accept when they've made a good point successfully and let things move on so a better proposal than the initial one can be developed.


the discussion was there, it just didn't deliver the results you hoped for

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#699 - 2012-09-10 05:17:13 UTC
Xolve wrote:
CliveWarren wrote:
Translation: There's actually people active in these forums that are smart enough to see through our transparent bullshit, so we're just going to quit and force whatever through anyway.

The underlying problem being, they can muster the :effort: to push a ****** voting reform through; but can't be asked to even think about bothering with literally anything of any importance (bugs, imbalances, broken mechanics, etc). Even after asking for examples, still didn't see the error in their judgment.

It's a sad day for anyone that voted for Trebor or Aleks.

Well I'm sure in the bright and sunny future, anyone that won't can send their vote directly to:

Department of Secure Disposal
Jita Park
CCP EVO Forums, The Internet

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Courthouse
Perkone
Caldari State
#700 - 2012-09-10 05:17:57 UTC
"Quick CSM brothers! To EVERadio! We're not being pandered to enough, we need more gladhanding, someone call FunkyBacon! Fire up the tweetfleet cannon! Get Arydanika on the line! We've got some self-congratulatory circlejerking to do! Tally Ho~" (The last part is what I imagine Trebor adding to the conversation.)