These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Jita Park Speakers Corner

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#501 - 2012-09-10 00:58:26 UTC
Dovinian wrote:
Now that I'm back from sailing and still a little drunk.

Hello people! I need to catch up on all the pages on this thread but I'll get it done soon.

Basically, changing the voting system isn't really a bad thing as long as it's done intelligently. EVE Players are almost always against any form of change historically. But after the dust settles and they get a chance to get used to it, all is well (most of the time anyways)

Can I take that as confirmation that you're backing Trebor's proposal?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#502 - 2012-09-10 01:00:22 UTC
Dovinian wrote:
Now that I'm back from sailing and still a little drunk.

Hello people! I need to catch up on all the pages on this thread but I'll get it done soon.

Basically, changing the voting system isn't really a bad thing as long as it's done intelligently. EVE Players are almost always against any form of change historically. But after the dust settles and they get a chance to get used to it, all is well (most of the time anyways)

Starting off a discussion with "we'll **** over voters in big blocs" isn't a good starting point. Find a new starting point.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#503 - 2012-09-10 01:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

This approach just confuses me. I don't see how Trebor's views on what a voting system should be doing and what your view on a voting system should be doing can't coexist in a discussion space about voting systems. They cant both WIN that discussion but why does the existence of disagreement between you and Trebor, me and Trebor, and/or me and you translate to nothing to discuss?
Because given the context of Trebor's OP - "how do we lower the voting power of all those people who didn't vote for us?" - hopes of carrying out a debate in good faith are left in serious doubt. Frankly after Trebor's suggestion/attempts to subvert democracy, we don't really trust you people to represent our interests in good faith. With such ill-intent revealed, many feel it's best not to let you anywhere near the election process in any capacity. Please stay away from tampering with it.

Trebor: "Hey howabout we round up all you undesireables into boxcars and railroad you off into a camp somewhere"
Players: "Howabout no, being sent to a camp sounds bad."
Seleene: "Crazy conspiracy idiots tinfoiling about how we want to 'send them into a camp somewhere. Sheesh. Now let's get into those boxcars!"
Player: "But Trebor said it. RIght here."
Seleene: *leaves thread, goes on to bungle some other eve related thing*
Aleksander: "Okay okay, maybe we don't have to send people off in boxcars off somewhere, but what's wrong with having a little open debate about increasing public transportation over rail? Right?"
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#504 - 2012-09-10 01:04:45 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
In the most recent election, for example, almost 25% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not win election to the CSM
Holy ****. Contact themittani.com and EN24 ... some people don't win elections.

Are we in grade five now, where everyone must be a winner?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#505 - 2012-09-10 01:14:17 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Because given the context of Trebor's OP - "how do we lower the voting power of all those people who didn't vote for us?" - hopes of carrying out a debate in good faith are left in serious doubt. Frankly after Trebor's suggestion/attempts to subvert democracy, we don't really trust you people to represent our interests in good faith. With such ill-intent revealed, many feel it's best not to let you anywhere near the election process in any capacity. Please stay away from tampering with it.

Trebor: "Hey howabout we round up all you undesireables into boxcars and railroad you off into a camp somewhere"
Players: "Howabout no, being sent to a camp sounds bad."
Seleene: "Crazy conspiracy idiots tinfoiling about how we want to 'send them into a camp somewhere. Sheesh. Now let's get into those boxcars!"
Player: "But Trebor said it. RIght here."
Seleene: *leaves thread, goes on to bungle some other eve related thing*
Aleksander: "Okay okay, maybe we don't have to send people off in boxcars off somewhere, but what's wrong with having a little open debate about increasing public transportation over rail? Right?"

In serious doubt? I don't think anyone looking at this can say there's any doubt that they're trying to kick us off their little tour bus.

Next time don't state openly you're going to try and rip off people. Even if you have to blatently lie and say it's totally fair, put your efforts towards making a fiendishly complicated system. Not that it'll save you when the likes of CFC leadership are examining it. But at least you'd make it less obvious than saying "put your vote into the shredder."

At least put a little sign on the shredder that says "ballot box".

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#506 - 2012-09-10 01:14:47 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Frankly after Trebor's suggestion/attempts to subvert democracy, we don't really trust you people to represent our interests in good faith.


Come on man. That's racist ;p

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts
#507 - 2012-09-10 01:14:47 UTC
This is really dumb and candidates who seriously wanted to get elected would find ways to get on the CSM.

Also if you think patriotism is bad you should biomass IRL. The only person at fault for a publord noname candidate not getting elected is himself for not getting support or having a terrible platform and/or grasp on things.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#508 - 2012-09-10 01:14:51 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
In the most recent election, for example, almost 25% of the votes were cast for candidates who did not win election to the CSM
Holy ****. Contact themittani.com and EN24 ... some people don't win elections.

Are we in grade five now, where everyone must be a winner?

Going by the articles at themittani.com, a lot of people lose. Sometimes it's us What?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#509 - 2012-09-10 01:19:24 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:


You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.


you are bad at forums. Specifically reading posts that go in them. Specifically my posts

It was talked about as "a problem" at the CSM meet in may/june. The CSM came up with this abortion of a suggestion, birthed out of the abortion of a set of minimum requirements, 3 months later.

You've spent 3 months on this.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2012-09-10 01:21:52 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Players legit worry about giving their vote to a small candidate not because he or she doesn't match their views but because they feel their vote would be wasted.
And yet, you, Hans, Issler (and Trebor to a lesser degree) were voted in. Seems like the small candidates did fine.

Trebor was definitely on the outs this year, and worked hard to pull in the vote. And the rest of you that I named, your bases are all reasonably small, and there was no guarantee any of you would win seats.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#511 - 2012-09-10 01:22:08 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:


You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.


you are bad at forums. Specifically reading posts that go in them. Specifically my posts

It was talked about as "a problem" at the CSM meet in may/june. The CSM came up with this abortion of a suggestion, birthed out of the abortion of a set of minimum requirements, 3 months later.

You've spent 3 months on this.

I think the suggestion quite capably satisfies their requirements. If it didn't, we wouldn't worry about them trying to shred our votes.

Next time, try and spend a month on how you'll "sell" it. Hint: Telling us upfront you want to shred our votes isn't going to cut it.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#512 - 2012-09-10 01:23:05 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:


You people have spent, what, 3 months thinking up this system, and it's pretty evident by the defensive posting that you guys really, really want to make sure us goons get to the back of the bus. There doesn't exist a single system, which will throw out votes in the fashion you guys want, which I will accept.


you are bad at forums. Specifically reading posts that go in them. Specifically my posts

It was talked about as "a problem" at the CSM meet in may/june. The CSM came up with this abortion of a suggestion, birthed out of the abortion of a set of minimum requirements, 3 months later.

You've spent 3 months on this.


You are my favorite poster in this thread because you know exactly what is going on and don't hesitate to let the people know.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#513 - 2012-09-10 01:24:16 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
AS AN ASIDE: Someone threw out the idea of each voter getting a "vote against" vote in addition to picking their preferred candidate. What do you guys think of that? Sounds very EVE-like.
I suggested that last year. As was shown to me, that is exceptionally game-able. Seleene and Two Step could kiss any future CSM goodbye were that implemented.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#514 - 2012-09-10 01:25:46 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
AS AN ASIDE: Someone threw out the idea of each voter getting a "vote against" vote in addition to picking their preferred candidate. What do you guys think of that? Sounds very EVE-like.
I suggested that last year. As was shown to me, that is exceptionally game-able. Seleene and Two Step could kiss any future CSM goodbye were that implemented.

Ooh, might want to take a step back from that one then. Wouldn't want to be standing in front of the voting blob.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#515 - 2012-09-10 01:26:16 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
To be honest, I'm VERY surprised at the number of Goonswarm posting that things should be kept exactly the same. You want to talk disenfranchisement, the over 10,000 votes for TheMitanni got thrown out because of his banning after he got elected. Are you guys sure you think NOTHING needs to be changed?
What does The Mittani's resignation have to do with the voting process? Nothing at all, in case you were wondering.

Don't drop oranges into the apple cart, please.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#516 - 2012-09-10 01:26:21 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
To be honest, I'm VERY surprised at the number of Goonswarm posting that things should be kept exactly the same. You want to talk disenfranchisement, the over 10,000 votes for TheMitanni got thrown out because of his banning after he got elected. Are you guys sure you think NOTHING needs to be changed?

I'll be real honest, designing voting systems is not my area of expertise. I supported this thread being started because, as Seleene said, this was a conversation that NEEDED to happen and I thought it would be better to lead with an idea to start things off. Mostly, I was looking forward to the discussion. Shooting holes in the original proposal has happened, but not a lot of constructive talk about what to do instead aside from keep things as is.

I dont think the system as-is does the job as well as it should. Players legit worry about giving their vote to a small candidate not because he or she doesn't match their views but because they feel their vote would be wasted. The system has no way of dealing with what happens when a successfully elected candidate becomes disqualified (banned, dead, whatever) before he or she takes office.

Building voting systems isnt my thing. The "best" system i can think of is a ranked preferences thing where you pick your top up to 14 candidates in order and they get "point" on that rank. Most points wins first place, second most second etc. But that assumes people will know enough about 40+ players running for CSM to be able to sort out preferences like that which isn't really realistic. And even if it was, it would make voting more complicated/time consuming and voter turnout is already an issue.

So we cant have a system I'd consider perfect, but the current one isn't good enough. We have a very intelligent player community including large groups of players who love to game/break systems (CFC comes to mind but they're not alone by any means) so let's talk about what the solution should be.

AS AN ASIDE: Someone threw out the idea of each voter getting a "vote against" vote in addition to picking their preferred candidate. What do you guys think of that? Sounds very EVE-like..

ALSO AS AN ASIDE: Having people pidegon holed into particular activities or areas of residence works in the real world but does not translate into a virtual environment like EVE. Characters can move all over and nothing stops a player who PVPs all weekend from doing mining and manufacturing during the weekdays. BUT thinning down the number of people running is a good idea. Instead of doing this by forum likes (which are overly easy to get), what about a round of 1 account/1 vote pre-vote/primary vote? Any other ideas?

Guarantee you i didnt spend 3 months on that rofl.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#517 - 2012-09-10 01:26:43 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

It was talked about as "a problem" at the CSM meet in may/june. The CSM came up with this abortion of a suggestion, birthed out of the abortion of a set of minimum requirements, 3 months later.

You've spent 3 months on this.


You are my favorite poster in this thread because you know exactly what is going on and don't hesitate to let the people know.
CSM Chairman treating us to some more b-grade shitposts.
Asking him some questions usually sends him scurrying off.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#518 - 2012-09-10 01:27:06 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
To be honest, I'm VERY surprised at the number of Goonswarm posting that things should be kept exactly the same. You want to talk disenfranchisement, the over 10,000 votes for TheMitanni got thrown out because of his banning after he got elected. Are you guys sure you think NOTHING needs to be changed?
What does The Mittani's resignation have to do with the voting process? Nothing at all, in case you were wondering.

Don't drop oranges into the apple cart, please.

Poetic Stanziel: Happy CCP threw out 10,000 votes.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Rengerel en Distel
#519 - 2012-09-10 01:29:29 UTC
I don't think all the trolling in the thread by the CSM is helping their case.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#520 - 2012-09-10 01:30:02 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
To be honest, I'm VERY surprised at the number of Goonswarm posting that things should be kept exactly the same. You want to talk disenfranchisement, the over 10,000 votes for TheMitanni got thrown out because of his banning after he got elected. Are you guys sure you think NOTHING needs to be changed?
What does The Mittani's resignation have to do with the voting process? Nothing at all, in case you were wondering.

Don't drop oranges into the apple cart, please.

People were supposed to kneejerk go "oh that's right" and then let them break your arm.

Get with the program ~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?