Ships & Modules

I'm just glad to see the Rokh actually getting mentioned; I'm tired of the players that insist Caldari are only about the missiles. It'd be nice if the Tengu rail fit was even remotely as viable for PvE as the HML fit is.

No, it really isn't.



I'm saying that giving a ship the tank and DPS of a command ship with the mobility of a HAC and some recon thrown in for good measure is overpowered.



You're acting like they can only fit one subsystem at a time, or only fulfill one role at a time. That's just false.



That assumes most of those jokers require the skills to 5 before flying the ship in a blob. Money says they don't.

-Liang

The Tengu would need nerfed for its PVE abilities, even if it weren't mindbogglingly amazing at PVP as well.

-Liang

Corelum A-type reps 417 hp on a Proteus here in my EFT if I fit it on a Proteus, then click on module in EFT fitting. They have been buffed recently, do you have latest EFT version?

erm yeah you do especialy if you want the kinda performance outta it you get i dont use crystal admitantly but i never said you needed em just that some do use em.

infact if i didnt use pith sb/ faction moduals i would not be able to fit my tengu the way it is one reason is due to cap the other is due to cpu.

It's a bit saddening that you find me so long-toothed these days that you don't even respond properly to my posts anymore Liang. I'm not saying that to troll you, but it feels like frustration is taking the better of you here and your posts are sadly suffering. Don't be so vigilant in the topic that your individual post quality drop to where you don't bother reading the other posts properly anymore. I really couldn't make any sense of your last reply at all, it felt like we talked about two completely different things, and i had no idea what you were on about.

To get this back on it's off-track (back to Tech III vs. Tech II rather than Faction BC ).

What ships or roles do the Tech III really obscure?

It's mostly just any tanking concept either way, since we've already established that's what they do better across the board (almost like a class trait).

When it comes to turret-sniping they are definately easily as good, but not necessarily completely overshadowing. Consider each Tech III equivalent to Eagles, Zealots, Ishtars and Muninns in LR setups.

When it comes to the EW subsystems they're not even on par.

When it comes to special traits they're not on par either, ie., the Tengu do not lob missiles like the Cerb (as noted, the problem is rather that said speciality have no larger appeal in the environment). The Loki is not faster than the fast Vagabond. It's more a hybrid issue of it being 75% of a Vaga and Huginn at once (those setups were amply named).

When they begin to obscure is when you factor in tank, since the way the class is designed things like tank or link-ups come ontop, the broad sort of pile on. It's a bit of a stretch claiming the any Tech II ship was made with "tank" in mind though, so that's not a role. This means the obscurity begin to manifest itself when you compare a Legion to an AHAC pulselot because the tank is conceptually tied to SR setups (ie., a similar weapon system with the role reinforced by a better tank). Think about it.

In most instances what make the ship feel better is not a better specialisation, but a better stacking of the hybridization (ie., you get something akin the Tech II trait plus an additional feature: tank, link, ew etc.).


Smoothing out bonuses:

If they're not meant to be on par, the only thing you'd really need to adress is the bonuses to weapon systems, no? That's where there seem to be disagreement, assuming "tank" is a hybrid trait of Tech III rather than a role usurped from Tech II. At the same time, then you might as well question the damage bonuses of the HAC lineup in the face of everything else:

Ergo, maybe HAC do not do enough damage compared to other things like BC, Frigates and the like; since you have the classic 300 vs. 600 sniper dps comparison, or how simply cutting a 300 Tech III sniper to 200 would need to be considered compared to Frigate options - the old example of the Vulture make a good point here, since it did something like 180 rail DPS, so most people just HML'ed it anyway, because it was essentially frigate-damage). It's a bit of a stretch, but do you guys see at least where i'm comming from here? It's not really the bonuses that's the "problem".

Another thing that is a really deciding factor is the bonus slot on certain powergrid subsystems. Without those even the high-damage exceptions are largely on par (without the PG +slot the Proteus and the Deimos are somewhat squared). If that is an issue, just adress the subsystem.


HAC-balance - then and now:

As always though, most of this just seem like shifting goalposts to me. It's a creep related solely to post-Crucible direction. HAC did similar damage to Tier 2 BC. The shift in perspective come when you factor in the Tier 3 that push the envelope. If someone had asked me if i felt it alright that Cerbs had a similar output to Drakes i would say yes, because the Cerb had a comparative role, and only needed a minor bonus-nudge to get a competetive role (ie., have it's second range bonus shifted to something that made sense for 120km sniping, compared to the Drakes' 80km). Now we have to factor in BC with BS guns that push 600 dps with "only" accuracy as a downside, and as most of us have come to realize today, that downside isn't very daunting since "blap" has profiled immensely.

I'm uncertain if the point get through, but if you spin the clock back a couple of years: i would consider a Cerb having it's 170 -> 120 bonus replaced by something that made sense for SHAC roles (such as a speed bonus). It would have been perfectly viable ship in it's element THEN, and reasonably balanced to a Drake, mechanics-wise. The SP and ISK would give you the ability to exploit reach and mobility, like all other SHAC. If it got that today it would be difficult warrant the SP and ISK compared to equally fast ships on lower SP and ISK but higher damage on lower accuracy. Even if we factor out ISK (or presume that CCP intend to rebalance Tech II to a comparative investment-level, to pursue direct balance*; even then an accuracy "bonus" from the smaller weapon class is at least debatable as an offset).

Picking from two similar ships, how would you value a 50-100% damage bonus compared to an equal amount tracking bonus?

*) PS. this is what my last post discussed, for those of you who just wrote it off as "whine". I'd still maintain that the only reason SHAC and AHAC stopped profiling was ISK. You could easily overhaul production (if that's what no-ISK in balance assumes), but with the ship overhaul the rules have changed.

In all honesty, i'm just trying to orient myself a bit in the discussion. I just have a feeling that some of you look at the total and conclude the Tech III obscure the HAC (ie., Proteus damage + tank + ew + ev. link in regard to a Deimos, which have no obvious spec; while it's really only the damage bonus that could be argued obscuring based on bonus and role).

Capable of the same DPS? Without faction BCUs?

BTW your ship doesnt need to be stable.

Indeed some faction is needed, but very little.

[Tengu, Capstable Bloodraiders]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

[Tengu, Sansha Setup]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

[Tengu, Omnitank Setup]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Gistum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
EM Ward Field II
Explosive Deflection Field II
Kinetic Deflection Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

That shield booster is 370M on contracts ATM (might be less on the market), and RF AB is 88 - again on contracts. Market prices in Jita will be less usually.

I realize there's a djungle out there, and several people have posted inbetween this and my last post. Since i ran out of space i'd just like to throw out this question as an introduction to the long post (that ended up way above)...

If we factor out both Crucible-creep and ISK.

Do you guys realize that any HAC or Recon concept could completely and utterly destroy Tier 2 BC?

Given that background.

Do you realize that the only reason Tech II (AHAC, NHAC, SHAC, C-Recon, S-Recon etc.) stopped profiling in the face of Tier 2 BC was ISK, and the necessity to kill 1:10 to keep ISK ratios levelled. They were "starved" out, it's not like Tier 2 BC were too good against them from a pure mechanical standpoint.

Do you additionally realize that some groups still continued to use those concepts despite the ISK disparity all the way up until Crucible, but more have stopped doing so since, as Crucible introduced creep?

Why did we consider the Crucible-creep necessary at the time?

That question become extra interesting since we today seem to be talking about "ISK shouldn't be part of balance" and look into various ways bottom-out production- and market spikes.

Why is it so hard to understand that: If ISK isn't supposed to be part of balance, there was no balance issue to deal with (when considering the balance of Tech II -> BC and BS -> BC, i should add).

Does that mean we adressed an ISK-issue from an incorrect balance-perspective, that now come back to bite our behind (as we now discuss the impopularity of HAC, the comparative power of Tech III and wether Tech III as well should be bottomed-out from an ISK-perspective)?

so essentialy a ded sb is required also i have also noticed that each of your fits use an ab something i dont due to cap issues i also notice your useing a cpu sub system not the sensor stregnth one witch is highly adviced against gurista rats and im beating that even these setups you have put here all have very little room for change. also you have to factor in the 150 mill or so for each rigs so unfortunately all you really proven is a mission fit tengu dose need ded and or faction mods and that you need a minimal of 1 bill to build em.