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Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#461 - 2012-09-09 23:48:07 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
And yes those 10k wasted votes have to do with how the election/voting system works. Kind of a "duh" response

No, those 10k wasted votes have fuckall to do with your wish to "reduce (but not eliminate) the advantagese held by highly organized voting blocs".

You're just making that up now.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
RDevz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#462 - 2012-09-09 23:48:50 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

And yes those 10k wasted votes have to do with how the election/voting system works. Kind of a "duh" response


Uh, surely it's to do with placating the fourth estate, given they weren't wasted (except for, possibly, the overvotes) until after the results had been announced?

~
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#463 - 2012-09-09 23:49:58 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
How the **** do you think anyone'll come up with a system which will fit in the criterias which "The CSM" will approve of, without trying (and failing to) assfuck the CFC/HBC's votes?

A requirement which, I might add, hasn't been rescinded yet; nor even questioned by other CSM members.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#464 - 2012-09-09 23:51:09 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
How the **** do you think anyone'll come up with a system which will fit in the criterias which "The CSM" will approve of, without trying (and failing to) assfuck the CFC/HBC's votes?

A requirement which, I might add, hasn't been rescinded yet; nor even questioned by other CSM members.

Actually, the fact we've dared question it has been scoffed at scornfully, by the CSM chair, as "tinfoil BS".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#465 - 2012-09-09 23:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

And yes those 10k wasted votes have to do with how the election/voting system works. Kind of a "duh" response


Yeah you're going to have to justify that one. Mittens getting booted off simply meant that the next alternate took his place. Presumably, ANY such system would have alternates, so I don't see how it has anything to do with the voting system.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#466 - 2012-09-09 23:55:10 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
What the **** kind of system can we possibly come up with which we'll find fair, given those criterias?

Surprise me cupcake.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#467 - 2012-09-09 23:55:34 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

And yes those 10k wasted votes have to do with how the election/voting system works. Kind of a "duh" response


Yeah you're going to have to justify that one. Mittens getting booted off simply meant that the next alternate took his place. Presumably, ANY such system would have alternates, so I don't see how it has anything to do with the voting system.

No alternate took his place. We started the term with 13 CSM members instead of 14

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Sal Volatile
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2012-09-09 23:57:03 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Seleene wrote:
If you don't like this initial proposal, counter it with your own and let's see what we can all come up with.

My counter-proposal: don't change anything.
Or if that's entirely out of the question for some reason: use any widely known voting system, not something you lot cobbled together over lunch and a couple of beers.


^ This

Nothing needs to be changed except people's perceptions that votes for candidates who didn't make CSM were "wasted". A single vote, first-past-the-gate voting system makes it very easy to candidates to see (a) how popular they are, (b) how much harder they have to try next time, and (c) how everyone else gamed the system.

Complex voting solutions outside the realm of "1-N preferential voting system" are not going solve any problems, but they will introduce new problems due to bugs in vote counting software, people not understanding the voting system, and candidates outright gaming the system.

The simple solutions are not effective, and the effective solutions are not simple. Even worse, the effective solutions are not going to be that much better than single-vote first-past-the-post.

The current system is broken, but at least we can all see and understand the brokenness. We just have to change the perception that votes for a candidate who didn't make CSM are somehow "wasted" any more than surplus votes for someone who made chairman. Those votes that went to candidates who didn't get into CSM mean that those voters didn't want the people that got into CSM. It's really as simple as that. Those are not "wasted votes".

Please, let's have a clear definition of the "problem" before you start trying to solve it.

I'll butt out now, but that's my contribution to this topic.


This is yet another very good response that will be dismissed as "tinfoil" by our increasingly intellectually dishonest CSM.
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#469 - 2012-09-09 23:57:42 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
How the **** do you think anyone'll come up with a system which will fit in the criterias which "The CSM" will approve of, without trying (and failing to) assfuck the CFC/HBC's votes?

What the **** kind of system can we possibly come up with which we'll find fair, given those criterias?

To put it more bluntly, do you really think you can come up with a gamed system that the folks in GSF and TEST can't game right back? We're organized and have better information resources!

Did anyone in the CSM ask CCP if they could implement real Single Transferable Voting? Or did Trebor & co look at it and say, "It's too fair, they'll still be able to use their 10k votes to out-elect my 1k votes. We need something like STV but from bizarro-world and dreamed up by Tammany Hall." Because real STV would be the best real voting system to make the votes of unaligned voters count.
Nymblar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#470 - 2012-09-09 23:58:03 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
" I'm also not surprised any attempt to address that is met with much resistance by said blocs.


Maybe the CSM should start by adressing it in a way where the goal is fair elections instead of actively trying to disenfranchise the majority of voters.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#471 - 2012-09-09 23:58:23 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

And yes those 10k wasted votes have to do with how the election/voting system works. Kind of a "duh" response


Yeah you're going to have to justify that one. Mittens getting booted off simply meant that the next alternate took his place. Presumably, ANY such system would have alternates, so I don't see how it has anything to do with the voting system.

No alternate took his place. We started the term with 13 CSM members instead of 14


Ah. And presumably its the fault of this voting system, somehow.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
serras bang
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#472 - 2012-09-09 23:59:42 UTC
Klyith wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
How the **** do you think anyone'll come up with a system which will fit in the criterias which "The CSM" will approve of, without trying (and failing to) assfuck the CFC/HBC's votes?

What the **** kind of system can we possibly come up with which we'll find fair, given those criterias?

To put it more bluntly, do you really think you can come up with a gamed system that the folks in GSF and TEST can't game right back? We're organized and have better information resources!

Did anyone in the CSM ask CCP if they could implement real Single Transferable Voting? Or did Trebor & co look at it and say, "It's too fair, they'll still be able to use their 10k votes to out-elect my 1k votes. We need something like STV but from bizarro-world and dreamed up by Tammany Hall." Because real STV would be the best real voting system to make the votes of unaligned voters count.


the csm reprecentatives have already said that they have chatted to ccp and ccp also said that this descusion should happen.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#473 - 2012-09-10 00:01:15 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:

I still think the conversation needed a starting place. I'm less concerned with where it started than where it goes.

I disagree: where it starts from matters and affects where it goes. If we have to spend our time arguing just for the principle that the system shouldn't be designed to disenfranchise us, our best case scenario is we wind up with only a moderate amount of deliberate disenfranchisement.

We're only willing to have a discussion about a fair voting system, not one that also involves "well a voting system should be biased against the CFC" principle as well.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#474 - 2012-09-10 00:03:20 UTC
Nymblar wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
" I'm also not surprised any attempt to address that is met with much resistance by said blocs.


Maybe the CSM should start by adressing it in a way where the goal is fair elections instead of actively trying to disenfranchise the majority of voters.

I think that point's been made like 15+ pages ago dude. Catch up with the rest of us.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Sal Volatile
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#475 - 2012-09-10 00:03:58 UTC
To be fair, the current CSM is actually pretty strong evidence that the existing voting system does not produce a very good CSM.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#476 - 2012-09-10 00:04:24 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
We're only willing to have a discussion about a fair voting system.

So have it? One paragraph from an IDEA the OP used to start a conversation 20+ pages ago has you sperging out like crazy.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#477 - 2012-09-10 00:05:25 UTC
Nymblar wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
" I'm also not surprised any attempt to address that is met with much resistance by said blocs.

Maybe the CSM should start by adressing it in a way where the goal is fair elections instead of actively trying to disenfranchise the majority of voters.

Maybe the CSM should stop believing that we're against it because it's bad for us. Maybe we're against it because Terbor's proposal is the stupidest voting system ever committed to words. Election by augury of the guts of sacrificed bulls was a better method.

serras bang wrote:

the csm reprecentatives have already said that they have chatted to ccp and ccp also said that this descusion should happen.

CCP said this discussion should happen, but the discussion started out with real STV being thrown out as beyond CCP's capabilities. I'd like to know if that was actually CCP's response or words being put into their mouth.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2012-09-10 00:05:27 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
We're only willing to have a discussion about a fair voting system.

So have it? One paragraph from an IDEA the OP used to start a conversation 20+ pages ago has you sperging out like crazy.

It's not merely an idea. It's clearly stated that the CSM is considering it as a requirement for any voting system.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#479 - 2012-09-10 00:06:15 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
We're only willing to have a discussion about a fair voting system.

So have it? One paragraph from an IDEA the OP used to start a conversation 20+ pages ago has you sperging out like crazy.


chiding everyone who disagrees with you isn't productive hth~

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#480 - 2012-09-10 00:07:48 UTC
Sal Volatile wrote:
To be fair, the current CSM is actually pretty strong evidence that the existing voting system does not produce a very good CSM.


By Alekseyev's own admission, then, the more gameable (by goons), the better!

Alekseyev Karrde wrote:


The two goons on CSM4 were two of the most insightful people around the table at the summit meeting and Mitten was the most effective CSM Chair yet. To me, that's a pretty good track record when it comes to the CSM, but that's a lot of personal bias on my part.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo