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Faction Battlecruisers - Would they work?

First post
Author
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#161 - 2012-09-09 07:52:19 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:

Look, T3 are OP if you fly them the way people fly them, with logistics, a gang, and ECM. Compared to T2 HACs they have significantly higher mobility, DPS and buffer, and same (high) resists, for high RR power.


Significantly higher mobility? No.
DPS? In *some* specific subs configurations - yes.
Buffer? In *some* specific subs configurations - yes.

The point is - they are not OP on the fundamental level. Some tweaks here and there are needed and I specifically said it in my post.

As far as HACs go - I'm all for improving them as in the current state of the game they are not very attractive to fly but that's a problem with HACs, not T3s.

Nestara Aldent wrote:

Also, while recons are usually better somewhat then T3 in EWAR role, T3 have much much bigger tank and are preferred (Loki vs. Huginn, Tengu vs. Falcon).

Thats where nerfbat needs to hit. They cant be better HACs than HACs and better recons than recons, and even better boosters than command ships, and then pretty low SP (compare Loki vs. Claymore pls), and cloaky nullified on top of it. Its wrong, its harmful for other ships.


You are right of course but the problem is that this only really applies to some configurations of Loki, Tengu and Legion booster.
It doesn't mean that those ships are inherently OP and that was my point.
I never actually saw ECMing Tengu but I saw a lot of Falcons.
I did see quite a bit of webbing Lokis and that may be a problem of them outclassing the Huggin.

Cloaky, nullified T3s doesn't have it's equivalent in T2 ships so it's in no way harmful for other ships.

I'm all for removing T3 boosters ( they will never be balanced properly ).
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#162 - 2012-09-09 07:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Roime wrote:

Indeed, an amusing Proteus fit. Really, a shield Prot that has no advantages over the armor fit, that is commonly flown... with almost 3x EHP?


You can't please both EFT warriors and people that want practical PVP fits. I figured that I better actually post a "max DPS" fit because anything less and he'd respond with an equally unrealistic Astarte. It's obvious he's more interested in EFT than in real PVP.

A real Proteus gives you two options: ******* massive buffer combined with great DPS or ******* great active tank combined with great DPS. Oh, and the quasi recon action too. That's always nice.

-Liang

Ed: Also, it was not in fact better in every base stat. Lol

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#163 - 2012-09-09 08:00:06 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

And for each Legion, how many Zealots did you see? For each Proteus, how many Deimos' did you see? Loki's to Vagabonds? Tengu's to Cerber...i(?)?


We all know that HACs in general needs a rework and especially Deimos and Cerberus are in need of some serious buffing.
Those ships are plain bad and comparing them to T3s is pointless.

Goldensaver wrote:

They take less time to train for than HAC's,


Uhm....no.

Goldensaver wrote:

Why would anyone pay for a damn Legion/Loki/Proteus/Tengu if they weren't SIGNIFICANTLY better than the T2 variants? I don't know, it seems pretty apparent to me that they must be quite a bit better...


In *some* ways they need to be better.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#164 - 2012-09-09 08:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Pink Marshmellow
Liang Nuren wrote:

A few more comments:
- People don't tend to talk about the Augoror when discussing the cruiser class vs the BC class, and nor should we really discuss the Cerb or Eagle when comparing HACs to T3s. I don't find it useful to compare the Sac to the Legion because the comparing the Zealot to the Legion is a much better comparison in both role and fittings. That said, the Legion blows the Sac away.
- The Proteus (1213 DPS) actually does outdamage the Astarte (1181). It basically comes down to a matter of slots (including rig slots) so its performance doesn't degrade as quickly as the Astarte's does.
- The Talos doesn't do the same thing that the Myrm (Previously Brutix) does. The Myrm is straight superior in a lot of ways.

[Proteus, Max Gank]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Gravitational Capacitor


Hammerhead II x5

-Liang


Just from seeing this I can clearly see that you have no idea what you're talking about. Such a laughably terrible fit. There are reasons why Shield Proteuses do not exist.

You can fit the same mods on the astarte and get better damage and tank, at a cheaper price as well.

I was asking for a practical fit, not some ridiculous EFT warrior fit that will obviously die in a fire. Your argument that proteus can match or exceed the astarte dps is invalid.

Heck a shield gank Talo would be superior and cheaper.

Go back and play EFT warrior
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#165 - 2012-09-09 08:50:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roime wrote:

Indeed, an amusing Proteus fit. Really, a shield Prot that has no advantages over the armor fit, that is commonly flown... with almost 3x EHP?


You can't please both EFT warriors and people that want practical PVP fits. I figured that I better actually post a "max DPS" fit because anything less and he'd respond with an equally unrealistic Astarte. It's obvious he's more interested in EFT than in real PVP.

A real Proteus gives you two options: ******* massive buffer combined with great DPS or ******* great active tank combined with great DPS. Oh, and the quasi recon action too. That's always nice.

-Liang

Ed: Also, it was not in fact better in every base stat. Lol


Ok I derped the speed numbers, true :D

To me the best Proteus is the cloaky one used as heavy tackle or general wh small gang/solo extravaganza, but it does not replace an Arazu. Which is much faster and with even longer tackle range.

Anyway it looks like the only T2 cruisers overshadowed by T3s are HACs in logi-backed fleets, but I do think that is more of an issue of HACs being generally quite bad in the current meta. Buff HAC EHP and mobility!

Guardian-backed Proteus/Legion/Loki brawler fleets are the shiznit in w-space, but are they really overpowered there? Against other similar fleets/faction battleships/caps? I've never heard wormholies complain about T3s, they belong to the landscape here.

Are they overpowered in null (a serious question)?

.

Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#166 - 2012-09-09 09:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pink Marshmellow
Liang argues that the Proteus is op claiming that it outdpses the CS counterparts. I counter saying that a proteus can't outdps a astarte without using more mods.

Liang counters using a fail fit, that when pointed out how fail it was, he tries to cover up the fact by saying that I was demanding as "fail EFT warrior fit", when I have never claimed so.


Conclusion: Liang is trolling or being dumb.

All this crying about T3 is what I see as "No fair my 100 million ship can't easily solo a 500+ million ship! I demand a nerf!"


If I were to apply this argument, T2 HAC's shouldn't "obsolete" T1 counterparts, but they do.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#167 - 2012-09-09 09:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Problem is they're (T3) too good for too many different things.

Lets look at the T3 vs T2 ships.

Proteus vs. Deimos = Proteus wins
Proteus vs. Arazu = depends. Proteus can have huge tank, but sometimes extra range that Arazu point have is better.
Proteus vs. Eos = Proteus wins

Also, not only that, but training for that one ship, you get cloak and nullification (and viable cloaky gank fit), as well as setup with armor repper almost as good as the Astarte.

You have a RR fit as well, that will rep with deadspace medium repper as much as logi ship with large solace repper, but with little range.

Still, its not OP, you say? C'mon its totally OP! The only drawbacks are the price, and the fact that you lose SP when you die.

Loki vs Vaga vs Huginn vs. Claymore or Tengu vs. Cerberus vs. Falcon/Rook vs Vulture is the same. Now Legion dont have good neut fit, but still its better than Zealot and Damnation.

And if you say your 500M ship must be a lot better than 100M ship, thats NOT how Eve works. In Eve you pay a lot (ISK, skill training) for relatively minor increase in capability.

Lets look, what role can possibly HACs have except DPS role? No role. They have to be at least on par with T3 in DPS role. Let T3s remain cloaky/more flexible/capable to scan etc. IMO you've paid for skilling for a Swiss Army knife ship by being worse in specialized role than specialized ship. Its fair.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#168 - 2012-09-09 10:17:33 UTC
3% link bonus -> 2%

Nerf grid on Tengu, fix HACs, profit?

Nestara Aldent wrote:
Problem is they're (T3) too good for too many different things.

Lets look at the T3 vs T2 ships.

Proteus vs. Deimos = Proteus wins
Proteus vs. Arazu = depends. Proteus can have huge tank, but sometimes extra range that Arazu point have is better.
Proteus vs. Eos = Proteus wins



Proteus vs. Ishtar = Ishtar wins
Proteus vs. Astarte = Astarte wins
Eos vs. anything = Eos loses

HACs are in many cases bad compared to BCs, and they need fixing.

Quote:
You have a RR fit as well, that will rep with deadspace medium repper as much as logi ship with large solace repper, but with little range.


Please show us a Proteus that comes even remotely close to an Oneiros. For the sake of discussion, you can have unlimited budget, all the best links and wormhole effects.

Quote:
Still, its not OP, you say? C'mon its totally OP! The only drawbacks are the price, and the fact that you lose SP when you die.


Price tag rivalling capitals, and losing SP seem to work on Tranquility as real limitations. T3 is not the best tool for every situation, and losing a T3 is in fact a big deal to most.

.

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#169 - 2012-09-09 10:59:25 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:

Proteus vs. Deimos = Proteus wins
Proteus vs. Eos = Proteus wins


Did you just compare Proteus to one of the worst HACs and *the* worst CS?
Does that mean there is a problem with Proteus or with the other two?

Nestara Aldent wrote:

you get cloak and nullification (and viable cloaky gank fit)


Show me a T2 ship that is overshadowed in that role.
There is none you say.
Quite correct.

Nestara Aldent wrote:

You have a RR fit as well, that will rep with deadspace medium repper as much as logi ship with large solace repper, but with little range.


Did you just compare RR Proteus to Oneiros?
Now you really overdid it.

Nestara Aldent wrote:

And if you say your 500M ship must be a lot better than 100M ship, thats NOT how Eve works. In Eve you pay a lot (ISK, skill training) for relatively minor increase in capability.


So by this logic, the T2, Navy and Pirate ships should be only marginally better than T1s while costing 5x - 20x times more?
The question is : who would use them if they were only marginally better?

Roime wrote:

*snip*


This guy knows what he's talking about.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#170 - 2012-09-09 11:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
@Roime

[Proteus, Proteus - RR]
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor EM Hardener II
True Sansha Power Diagnostic System

Republic Fleet 10MN MicroWarpdrive
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
ECCM - Magnetometric II
Imperial Navy Medium Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
150mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge S
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Corelum A-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System

Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Remote Repair Augmentor II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration

133415 EHP with Legion OGB+Mindlink, no slaves, 91.6 89.8 94.9 84.9 resists

Logi power 4*417 HP repaired (its more than 4 large 'solace').

Also, probing sybsystem can be fitted, and probe launcher instead of small railgun.

With LG Slaves+omega it goes to 174k EHP. If heat is added, 202k EHP.

I'd use it as bait. How much it would be viable, idk, but Onei/Guards dont have its buffer. I think the fit is quite interesting.
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#171 - 2012-09-09 11:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: chris elliot
Roime wrote:


*snip*

Quote:
You have a RR fit as well, that will rep with deadspace medium repper as much as logi ship with large solace repper, but with little range.


Please show us a Proteus that comes even remotely close to an Oneiros. For the sake of discussion, you can have unlimited budget, all the best links and wormhole effects.

Quote:
Still, its not OP, you say? C'mon its totally OP! The only drawbacks are the price, and the fact that you lose SP when you die.


Price tag rivalling capitals, and losing SP seem to work on Tranquility as real limitations. T3 is not the best tool for every situation, and losing a T3 is in fact a big deal to most.


[Proteus, logi]

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Corelum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Corelum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Corelum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Corelum C-Type Medium Remote Armor Repair System
Medium Energy Transfer Array II
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Proteus Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Proteus Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Proteus Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Proteus Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Closest I could get. Tanks ok.. ish. But Its slower, has less repping power, shorter rep range and 5x the price tag of my oneiros. Cloak is for giggles.. Which I guess is an ok tradeoff seeing as how you are slow and cant rep much farther than the tip of your nose... and you get no drones to set on falcons.

EDIT: Also has about x2+ the sig of an oneiros.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#172 - 2012-09-09 11:10:45 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
...


No it have more repping power than 4 large 'solace' because proteus RR subsystem gives 50% bonus to RR efficiency.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#173 - 2012-09-09 11:14:46 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:

*snip*


Roll
And what is the logistics operational range of that beast?

You are aware that the logistics needs RANGE to be effective at their job?
You are aware that the range of that fit you posted is : 7km?
You are aware that you cannot have effective gang logistics in that range?
You are aware that the tanking MUST be exceptional because of super short operational range?

Is this boat interfering with specialized logistics in any way?
And if it's not then what is your point?
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#174 - 2012-09-09 11:25:09 UTC
Yes I know well, it cant work with logis due to 7km range.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#175 - 2012-09-09 11:30:12 UTC
Are tracking enhancers going to get their falloff bonus fixed then?

How about a nerf for T2 long range ammo for short range guns, to fix all this mid-range nonsense?

How about cutting the range and frigate-killing ability of heavy missiles?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#176 - 2012-09-09 11:32:50 UTC
Yes heavies are getting the range nerfed at long last and hopefully HAMS too or more specifically the rage ammo 18km for high damage t2 ammo is even better than conflag which is ridiculous.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#177 - 2012-09-09 12:00:37 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Yes I know well, it cant work with logis due to 7km range.


So it's not really screwing with T2 logistics in any way.

I think that this ship is a good example of how T3s should be balanced.
It isn't overshadowing specialized logistics, which are plain better in that role, but it is still a logistics boat in a very distinct, strange way. It has some benefits - much stronger repping power + ability to fit covops cloak for instance.
Having better tank is just a requirement for this boat to actually work.

That's how all T3s should really work. Being good at some specific roles, which are not directly covered by T2 ships even if those roles are somewhat similar.
Take that covert, ganky Proteus for instance - it isn't really making any other ship obsolete. It has a very specific, well defined role, which is not being covered by any other Gallente ships.

Of course they also need higher survivability when compared to T2 ships because they are very juicy target. Excessive cost + low survivability is not going to work in this game ever.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2012-09-09 12:20:07 UTC
Stole this post from this thread over in wormholes.

Pink Marshmellow wrote:
This whine about T3 obsolete T2 Ships is simply groundless. One only needs to look at the ships to see it is so.

Have you ever seen a

T3 Hictor or a T3 Logistic?

Hictor option does not exist and the Logistic is mostly bad that its not worth using(except for maybe pve - which is not a balance factor for pvp)

Do T3 recons obsolete T2 recon ships? Look at the bonuses and you can clearly see that it does not.

T2 recon ships have superior ewar capability over T3. e.g. Falcon vs Tengu jams, Pilgrim vs Legion Neut, Rapier vs Loki Web, and Arazu vs Proteus scram.

T2 field command ships typical are superior to T3 cruiser in firepower. (Except the Nighthawk which is a lulzy and problematic ship.) The Astarte, Absolution, and Sleipnir kicks T3 ass the dps department.

T2 HACs typically have better mobility, smaller sig radius, and longer range capabilities than T3. HAC's are mobile, tanky RR gang cruisers with good firepower.

I believe the main argument and complaint is that T3 beat HAC's overall, but if you really think about it, most HAC's see little use even without T3 ships around.

The Fact is that most HAC's are pretty awful. The Eagle out of all is the worst ship and the Cerberus is a joke. The sacrilege is a slow armor ships with short range missiles. The ishtar is a decent drone boat, but suffers from fitting issues and drones are a bit lame. The deimos is well diemost. The Muninn is pointless with the Tornado and Hurricane around.

Out of all 8 HAC's, 2 HAC's see regular use. The zealot and the vagabond, the only decent and worthy of the bunch. The Vagabond is the bread and butter nano ship. The Zealot is the ARMOR HAC.

I ask of CCP to be reasonable and not listen to rabid blabbering people who say things without any real backup.
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#179 - 2012-09-09 13:31:30 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
chris elliot wrote:
...


No it have more repping power than 4 large 'solace' because proteus RR subsystem gives 50% bonus to RR efficiency.



With all 5's each repper wil repair 354 hp. On its own without the bonus's it will repair 286.

With all 5's on an oneiros each repper will repair 384.

So no, it has less repping power.
Lili Lu
#180 - 2012-09-09 14:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Pink Marshmellow wrote:
This whine about T3 obsolete T2 Ships is simply groundless. . .

Have you ever seen a T3 Hictor or a T3 Logistic? Hictor option does not exist and the Logistic is mostly bad that its not worth using(except for maybe pve - which is not a balance factor for pvp)

Do T3 recons obsolete T2 recon ships? Look at the bonuses and you can clearly see that it does not. T2 recon ships have superior ewar capability over T3. e.g. Falcon vs Tengu jams, Pilgrim vs Legion Neut, Rapier vs Loki Web, and Arazu vs Proteus scram.

T2 field command ships typical are superior to T3 cruiser in firepower. (Except the Nighthawk which is a lulzy and problematic ship.) The Astarte, Absolution, and Sleipnir kicks T3 ass the dps department.

T2 HACs typically have better mobility, smaller sig radius, and longer range capabilities than T3. HAC's are mobile, tanky RR gang cruisers with good firepower. I believe the main argument and complaint is that T3 beat HAC's overall, but if you really think about it, most HAC's see little use even without T3 ships around.

The Fact is that most HAC's are pretty awful. The Eagle out of all is the worst ship and the Cerberus is a joke. The sacrilege is a slow armor ships with short range missiles. The ishtar is a decent drone boat, but suffers from fitting issues and drones are a bit lame. The deimos is well diemost. The Muninn is pointless with the Tornado and Hurricane around.

Out of all 8 HAC's, 2 HAC's see regular use. The zealot and the vagabond, the only decent and worthy of the bunch. The Vagabond is the bread and butter nano ship. The Zealot is the ARMOR HAC.

I ask of CCP to be reasonable and not listen to rabid blabbering people who say things without any real backup.

This issue (tech III v tech II) is more complex. The "whine" as you cast it is not "simply groundless" as you state erroneously nor is it universally correct, as you provide some examples. Tech III hictors is a red herring. They don't exist, why even mention this?

CCP knows they f'd up with the command subsystems. I think their original idea was for example what harm can one better link on a Loki do to the usage of a Claymore. What they didn't consider was the abulity of players to construct extreme fits. So hey how nifty did the cov warping, eccm'd ss-ing, command processored for multiple links, no tank and cpu-moded to fit all that small-gang or solo "dishonor" booster alts become? Very nifty and used a lot. This is the real area where tech III obsoleted tech II, in command boosting. Better bonuses + off-grid from tech III links was a huge mistake. That will change, thankfully, finally.

Tech III logis haven't proliferated due to lack of a range bonus. And the fact that where you might use them, in a balck ops gang, most of the ships you'd be wanting to rep (bombers) are simply not constructed for or meant to tank. However, it is true that this is one area where such an ability does not obsolete any tech II logi. If anything there might be room for a slight boost with this tech III configuration. Although one would have to be delicate with it or else all you would ever see are black ops gangs dropping and killing everything in sight.

Tech III shield recon configurations don't really obsolete tech II shield recons because of the cost factor. Why construct a Tengu, Proteus, or Loki for this when your ecm, long-pointing, and webbing can be done cheaper.

Tech III recons do obsolete the idea of the solo hunter/killer recons that Arazus, Rapiers, and Falcons might have aspired to. Why? Because of the ability to retain better dps and tanking abilities with the cov ops cloak and or ewar. With one exception, the Legion v Pilgrim. Why construct a Legion for this when a Pilgrim does about the same cheaper. This is not to say that the Pilgrim is overpowered, but that the Legion is lacking.

However, Tech III recons do have a niche in an armor configuration with an armor fleet. Proteuses and Lokis can be made as beefy enough armor tankers to be used with armor fleets, particularly AHAC gangs (which still survive as small/mid size gangs particularly in lowsec). You simply can't fit the Lach or Hugi recons to have a meaningful armor tank for doing webbing and pointing. They work in shield configurations and fleets because of plentiful mids and retaining mobility.

Field commands are frankly all rather weak for the sp and isk invested compared to alternatives, except maybe the Sleip, especially now with ASBs. Also, the role-hybridization of Tech IIIs are something that field commands can't do. Field commands may need a slight buff.

HACs see little use because tier 2 BCs are so much better in a power/cost consideration. Tech IIIs again displace them because of the hybridization ability with roles (cov ops, ewar subsystems in addition to damage and tank retention). Tier 3s killed off any vestige of sniper HACing.

The HAC that still sees a good amount of use is the Zealot in an AHAC gang. Why? Because of having 7 low slots to fit a good enough armor tank and still have room for damage mods, still have enough grid and range on dps because of pulses and scorch. Is the Zealot overpowered? No. For one thing it has no drones. But it has a niche and it's competitors/colleagues are deficient in one way or another (Deimos, Ishtar, Munnin).

The Cerb and Eagle both are deficient because they were constructed for a niche, extreme range, that is no longer viable. In general HACs are in a sorry state only partially due to tech IIIs. It will be a tricky manuever for CCP to get the balancing right with any tech III or HAC alterations. Buffing HACs will be a delicate business lest they dominate BSs again. Nerfing tech III combat systems must be selective (Tengu rof, etc).

So there is not "rabid blabbering" as you call it. It is a complex picture. And most of the tech III valid complaining is due to command subsystem and hybridization abilities.