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Call For Discussion : CSM Voting Reform

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#181 - 2012-09-08 18:09:08 UTC
Come to think of it, the voting system isn't the actual problem.

The problem is that what we're voting for is undefined. The CSM is not a decision-making body, so proportionality doesn't matter. it may be a ranked body, but only the top and the bottom four(?) positions are of any relevance.

So what relevant factor is it the votes are supposed to decide? Before this is answered, there's no way to pick a matching voting system.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2012-09-08 18:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselFinance
It is, essentially, a way to get a weighted sample of the EVE population. If you just want lots of viewpoints you can post on the forums, and you'll get all of them. However by voting, we know which of these have real heft behind them and which are just being sockpuppeted into relevance.

Trebor is trying to bias it in favor of his preferred players, so they seem to be much more relevant than they actually are. He's not interested in a fair sample: he's deliberately trying to bias it. All viewpoints aren't equally relevant: that's the great thing about the CSM. We can seperate out the platforms people care about - that of, say, The Mittani - from those people do not, the perennial losers.

STV allows those perennial losers, to the extent they have legitimate support but poor organization, to get that representation. Fixing that is laudible. But what Trebor's trying to do isn't get better representation, it's to try and disenfranchise the voters he doesn't like so the representation is more to his liking.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2012-09-08 18:18:47 UTC
The obvious bias element is one thing.

Take it a step further. How many blocks do you think have perfect exit polling and excellent voter coordination? Where they can optimize their results using their IT infrastructure.

This new system will be game-able, by only those blocks with that ability. You are going to make your problem a whole lot worse.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#184 - 2012-09-08 18:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
It is, essentially, a way to get a weighted sample of the EVE population. If you just want lots of viewpoints you can post on the forums, and you'll get all of them. However by voting, we know which of these have real heft behind them and which are just being sockpuppeted into relevance.

Trebor is trying to bias it in favor of his preferred players, so they seem to be much more relevant than they actually are. He's not interested in a fair sample: he's deliberately trying to bias it. All viewpoints aren't equally relevant: that's the great thing about the CSM. We can seperate out the platforms people care about - that of, say, The Mittani - from those people do not, the perennial losers.

STV allows those perennial losers, to the extent they have legitimate support but poor organization, to get that representation. Fixing that is laudible. But what Trebor's trying to do isn't get better representation, it's to try and disenfranchise the voters he doesn't like so the representation is more to his liking.

Well that's what the smoke and mirrors is for, there's a hidden lens there to distort things.

But the claim is that it's optimal to distort things... I guess we could use more miners' friends (you know what I mean) around.
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
However by voting, we know which of these have real heft behind them and which are just being sockpuppeted into relevance.

Trebor is trying to bias it in favor of his preferred players, so they seem to be much more relevant than they actually are. He's not interested in a fair sample: he's deliberately trying to bias it.

Basically instead of sockpuppeting with thread spamming and/or alts, you do it "legitimately" via a new voting mechanism. Excellent.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#185 - 2012-09-08 18:20:07 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.


Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Cool Thanks for the white knight though.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#186 - 2012-09-08 18:21:28 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.


Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Cool Thanks for the white knight though.

Trebor clearly implied his proposal was that of the CSM (as I pointed out when I showed him doing it three times in two sentences). Could you confirm that's not the case?
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-09-08 18:22:33 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
PS: If the candidates in the previous election would care to let me know what their preferred alternate representatives were, I would be happy to update the simulator to reflect these. For the record, mine would have been: Seleene, Hans, Two Step, Meissa, Alek, leboe and corebloodbrothers.
Nobody had better have Kelduum on their preferred alternates list.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#188 - 2012-09-08 18:23:46 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.


Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Cool Thanks for the white knight though.

Trebor clearly implied his proposal was that of the CSM (as I pointed out when I showed him doing it three times in two sentences). Could you confirm that's not the case?

I hope they'd all have done their homework to ensure that the people voting for them would get a "leg up" via the new system.

Otherwise you'd look pretty silly.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2012-09-08 18:26:08 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
You wrote it, you defend it. Man up, and stop letting your CSM-mate take all the heat.


Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Cool Thanks for the white knight though.

So what you're saying is that in other words, Trebor incorrectly wrote the entire starting post as something the CSM as a whole stood behind, but it's just Trebor which should be lynched, and while you defended it initially, you've now turned coat 180 degrees and are now against it?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-09-08 18:31:00 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Relax, Poe. I stand by the things I've said, and those alone. I don't really care if people yell at me for things Trebor said, doesn't bother me one bit. Cool Thanks for the white knight though.
You haven't said anything, though.

You've pretended that this change isn't about the CFC by throwing out complete flights of fancy (i.e., what if Kelduum controlled the largest powerbloc in the game, then this new voting proposal would be good, right? What if cows wearing ridiculous hats ran for the CSM, and those cows duped humans into voting for them?)

Actually, I'm not sure what this proposal is meant to solve? For CSM7 ... the CFC threw all their votes behind one candidate. Only one CFC candidate would be on the CSM right now (had he not resigned.) Because they chose NOT to game the system.

Under this new proposal, The Mittani would have been voted King, plus two people he deemed as alternates in the Queen and Prince positions. Without even trying to game the system, the CFC would now have three candidates on the CSM.

Perhaps you should explain to us what is broken about the current system? And why The Mittani's votes are any less valid than your own votes or Trebor's votes? Hell, Kelduum's votes are valid, even if he turned out to be a useless teet.
EvilweaselFinance
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#191 - 2012-09-08 18:32:48 UTC
let us not forget: the csm also has decided the people cannot be trusted to elect the Chairman and has decided that should be taken away from the voters as well
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#192 - 2012-09-08 18:33:59 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Perhaps you should explain to us what is broken about the current system? And why The Mittani's votes are any less valid than your own votes or Trebor's votes? Hell, Kelduum's votes are valid, even if he turned out to be a useless teet.

Well one's own votes are always more valid.

Besides, if it's now about The Mittani we can go back and dig up/necro the old threads by, what was it, a couple of CSM members demonizing him?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2012-09-08 18:34:32 UTC
In the interest of neutrality, can I request that we stop referring to the CSM's proposed electoral system as "STV"? It isn't STV and has just been named as such to hide the fact that there's some additional clauses which haven't been proposed or reviewed in the real world.
As for my opinion on the electoral system: If you want to replace the current partial block voting with a different system, choose one that has seen public scrutiny, preferably one that's also been widely debated in literature, rather than making a system up on the spot that has the express intention of disenfranchising voters ("Reduce ... the advantages held by highly organized voting blocs"), and then pretending it's basically a widely studied system.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2012-09-08 18:37:09 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Under this new proposal, The Mittani would have been voted King, plus two people he deemed as alternates in the Queen and Prince positions. Without even trying to game the system, the CFC would now have three candidates on the CSM.

No, without trying to game the system exactly that wouldn't have happened, because all of the surplus Mittani votes would have been thrown out. You see, that's the entire intention of calling the proposal "STV-CD": you associate it with STV, where you have an idea how it works. Yet it doesn't work like that, because it isn't STV.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2012-09-08 18:37:33 UTC
When election time comes around Im gonna link the **** out of this thread to remind people how the CSM couldn't make up their mind whether they did or did not want to actively toss out the votes of people because they don't like who they are voting for.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#196 - 2012-09-08 18:38:57 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
In the interest of neutrality, can I request that we stop referring to the CSM's proposed electoral system as "STV"? It isn't STV and has just been named as such to hide the fact that there's some additional clauses which haven't been proposed or reviewed in the real world.
As for my opinion on the electoral system: If you want to replace the current partial block voting with a different system, choose one that has seen public scrutiny, preferably one that's also been widely debated in literature, rather than making a system up on the spot that has the express intention of disenfranchising voters ("Reduce ... the advantages held by highly organized voting blocs"), and then pretending it's basically a widely studied system.

Presumably the hope is that, in Jita Park, it would not recieve too much attention which is then just whitewashed as "ah it was discussed" (as per the topic) and then they use it to help ensure they get to stay and stay CFC free.

Perhaps not, but hey, how many people are going to see this, other than a few people noting it's not a great idea.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Remnant Madeveda
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2012-09-08 18:48:41 UTC
Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#198 - 2012-09-08 18:50:07 UTC
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known.

I would imagine before the people come in (near voting season) the thread would be long dead, and anyone who tries to bring it up will find it locked for "necro".

As long as we never not post and keep it up, perhaps not, but there's months to go for us to get tired.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Remnant Madeveda
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-09-08 18:51:00 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
Depends, I mean Mittani already said he wouldn't cover or comment on anything the CSM said or did to remain professional, so no themittani.com article on it. However, it will remain at the top of the park for quite a while so long as we keep discussing it, and it will come to the attention of people that just browse for evenews anywhere. I wouldn't count on Riverini covering this on "EN-24", so we can't count on that exposure either. Ah well, at least we were able to let our displeasure with the proposal known.

I would imagine before the people come in (near voting season) the thread would be long dead, and anyone who tries to bring it up will find it locked for "necro".

As long as we never not post and keep it up, perhaps not, but there's months to go for us to get tired.



There are rules about that though...
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#200 - 2012-09-08 18:52:03 UTC
What about a Poll Tax? We can RP it in terms of needing to fund the voting infrastructure.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them