These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Weapons: T2 Turret to Missile Training Time (why is it such a huge difference in time)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
NetBlaise
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-08-30 11:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: NetBlaise
ok what is the deal with the training time of Turrets? Since the Tier 3 BC came out I have wanted to pilot a Naga. I'm a Caldari Missile Pilot. NO sp in gunnery unless I started with. Well I did get weapon upgrades/Advance also.. That's a must...First we Missile users were so made about the New Tier ships not having any Missile support what so ever. On the Test servers they had it on there. Don't no why they took it off.. I think it was Torp Missiles....By making a New Caldari ship not use missiles doesn't make since what so ever... You pretty much said "These Tier 3 BC are only for Turret use's"... To bad missile user.. better luck next time...

So I thought that well if it use Large Hybrid Weapons why not see how it is... Me and most other Missile Pilots use T2 Missile. Doesn't take long what so ever seems right to me...I loaded up Evemon and added the skills that would need for T2 Large Weapons and the training was crazy....59 Days 7hr. If I used a remap it would be 56days. I'm already mostly Perc/Willpower....Got a lli bit of Intel for when I was training my shield skills up..Don't really need intel anymore...The reason why the training is so long is because of the Specialization req. You have to get all the lower Tier weapons to 5 (V) and the Specialization to 4 (IV). that means small medium large all need to be 5....What a waste... Players will only stay in a frig for a day or so, A destroyer for a day or so. Players will be in a Cruiser for a lil while trying to make isk to be a BC. that doesn't even take long. Well use to.. I've been playing for years and I can't tell you the last time I used a Rocket Launcher.. I never have used one....Used a Light Launcher Once and that was for a few days then started using heavy Launchers on my cruiser......Most used weapon is Heavy Launchers..I use a BC or Cruiser sized ship more then anything else in the game.. Well I do love my Stealth Bomber... Well they use's BOmbs and Torps mostly....

My question is why is the training so much different then its counter part? Are you trying to tell us that Missiles are useless and Turrets are the best in the game? Half the Caldari Ship Line up is useless? What is da deal....

Now I am using Evemon for my skill planing.. I have to make sure that it didn't take forever... I went and downloaded EveHQ. Best outstanding software for this game. Been using it for years.....It says the same training time..

When I first heard about Eve in 2008 I read that it had missile launchers as a form of Damamge/DPS...First thought that came to my head is Spike damage a Tank breaker.... Deal a massive amount a amount
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-08-30 13:31:55 UTC
You're right that there's a big disparity in training time between T2 missiles and T2 turrets; T2 missiles are easier to get into, true, but there are a number of disadvantages, such as flight-time issues and the like. And you can do fairly awesome things even if you don't have T2 turret specialization; using named guns and faction ammunition, you can lay down crazy amounts of damage in a Tier-3 battlecruiser, for example, or set up a Naga or a Talos with a sniper fit that'll hit out to 100 km or better with a respectable punch.

And there are places (most notably Faction Warfare) where light combatants really do come into their own. That's where I found out that an Enyo assault frigate can not only hold its own with a HAM-armed Drake, but fillet it like a trout; you'll find nasty artillery-fit destroyers, rocket-armed faction frigates that punch far above their weight class, and light-ship gangs that will routinely take on battlecruisers (and sometimes even battleships) and win.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#3 - 2012-08-30 17:56:20 UTC
The Caldari line of ships has 2 types of weaponry. I used to think it was kind of a screw job that the Tier 3 BS, the big dog of Caldari, uses a totally different class of weapons. Eventually I noticed that there was a frigate, cruiser, battle cruiser gun progression to get there. Like me, you probably only saw what you wanted to see on the way up.

Minmatar has 2 types of tank available depending how you fit your ships.
Gallente has 2 types of damage. Drones or Hybrids.
Amarr has Capacitor issues that are mandatory in training a good Amarr ship. AND they have ships that use drones, missiles, guns as well.

I'm just pointing out that the 'two paths' thing is not a Caldari specific thing.

Caldari does have arguably some of the best ships for PVE, E-War, BC fights, Exploration, etc.

On a down note:
Decent guns need more than the gun itself. You can get near 10 million SP into gunnery, and still not have 1 T2 gun. The supports are what make the guns shine. Add another 60 - 90 days to your plan for perfect gunnery.

On an up note:
You wont be disapointed with your new skills. Guns open up the rest of the EVE world and in general they are more fun.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#4 - 2012-08-30 20:24:17 UTC
No offense, but do you seriously think that this is the first time in nearly a decade of EVE that this has come up as a topic for discussion?

Turrets require spec building. Missiles have higher ranked supports. Turrets pool supports. In the end it comes out in a wash. Here's a 2008 thread that sums things up. And one from last year. And there are dozens more out there.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#5 - 2012-08-30 20:52:46 UTC
No OP you're wrong!

Max gunnery support and guns for one race - it might be arond 9-10M SP (all supports 5, all specs 4). Now max all missiles (all supports 5, all specs 4) and its about the same SP needed.

Its only that missiles are better for missions and plexing with mediocre skills, so people have a perception less SP is needed.
NetBlaise
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-08-31 01:55:44 UTC
You no what I think it takes longer for Missile skills now.. For missiles you are able to specialized in one type of missile fast but the problem is if you specialize in like Light Assault Launchers then later you might want to do long range and do Light Missile Launchers then you will have to train that to T2 also.. All out missiles are like this.. Turrets are not...Heres a Post from 2011 with the same Thread as this..........

Posted - 2011.06.07 00:18:00 - [3]


Originally by: Gypsio III

Originally by: Mograph
Not sure which way it should be changed - should Missiles need more skills, or guns need less? But I think they should be similar training times.





Not this **** again.

The missile skill tree is considerably longer than a single turret tree plus it lacks the transferable turret support skills. It takes a lot longer to gain all T2 missiles than it does for getting all T2 lasers, with good support skills in both cases.

In exchange for this longer skill tree, the missile user has the option of entering the tree at different points. A classic case of "different but balanced".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


what if I dont want ALL t2 lazors, I just want t2 Large lazors, and then just t2 medium hybrids, and just t2 small projectile?

That should take the same time as getting t2 light heavy and cruise missiles? but it wont becuase for the lare t2 lazors I gotta train and extra 3 level 5 skills.

Thats what i'm getting at more than the rest of it. it should still be balanced but in a more consistant manner.


and if you are reading this you have reached the signature without noticing.




a reply...............…

Posted - 2011.06.07 01:13:00 - [4]

But when you train to your 'lazors' you can use both pulse and beam variety. Whereas for missiles you need to train Cruise missiles to 5 - then if you want to use the short ranged high DPS ones (of BS variety) you would have to train Torpedoes to 5 as well.

It works out in the end.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#7 - 2012-08-31 05:54:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
NetBlaise wrote:
ok what is the deal with the training time of Turrets?

Missiles were never intended to be a primary weapon system originally. It just sort of happened though. [I think this is a paraphrase of a dev quote.]

I'm primarily a Caldari pilot, but I can pilot many other ships reasonably well.

It took me about 2 weeks to train every T1 turret to level 3, including all the turret support skills to level 3 (includes gunnery 5 which is required for large turrets). It also took me about a month to train the three other races to battleship 4. I then trained all the turret and turret support skills to level 4, which took maybe two months.

With level 3 skills I was running level 3 missions in a battlecruiser. I also did level 2 missions in a destroyer, which was challenging at times (Mission of Mercy, warped out a lot, and had to overheat, but completed it in an arty-Thrasher). Level 2 missions in a cruiser were trivial when using long-range weapons (lost a Rupture using short-range AutoCannons on Mission of Mercy).

Armor tanking seemed to take a lot less time to train than shield tanking did. I can do both now (elite in both).

It didn't take very long to reach a basic level of competency. Turrets don't take a lot of time until you reach large T2; you can train all up to medium T2 reasonably fast.
NetBlaise
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-08-31 06:40:42 UTC
I have about 500 SP that need to be allocated.. Think I might put them all into Hybrids.. Maybe even Lasers. For some reason Lasers look so cool and powerful to me.....I might do close range Turret first then end up at long range when I get to Large.. Mainly for the NAGA...
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-09-01 07:39:26 UTC
If caldari got screwed because the Tier 3 BC is not a missile platform, then Gallente got screwed because their tier 3 BC is no a drone platform.

All their frigates + destroyer wield at least 1 drone (with the exception of a couple T2 oddities *cough* ares and Nemesis *cough*)
The imicus weilds 3, the Navitas soon to have more, the Iskur has 5
Then you've got the Vexor, and all the other cruisers can use at least a full flight of lights
Then the myrmidion, then the Dominix...
Have you seen the time it takes to train T2 heavies and sentries? At least you get overlap with weapon upgrades and advanced weapon upgrades. Drone users have zero overlap.

*note, I don't really think Gallente got screwed, I'm just using it as a "quit whining" example.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-09-01 17:21:02 UTC
If someone among the replies could answer one question for me:

pretty sure Rapid Launch, Bombardment, Projection, Target nav Prediction and Warhead Upgrades affect every missile. Guided Missile Precision is the only support skill that doesn't, and turrets have an equivalent with the cap reduction skill.

So how do missile support skills not transfer, exactly?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-09-07 07:07:29 UTC
NetBlaise wrote:
. You have to get all the lower Tier weapons to 5 (V) and the Specialization to 4 (IV). that means small medium large all need to be 5....What a waste...



you can pick and choose your path to save time. Since eyeing the naga, while not set in stone....caldari ='s rails, gallente ='s blasters a real good guideline. rerun the evemon only rails. All you basically need for naga for a while. No lv sm,med,lg blasters to start a great time saver. Want blasters get them later.

Someone will chime in with a blaster rules I am sure....the other 3 races do up close better imo. Especiall with the caldari gaping em hole that amarr and minny have ammo for and there you are, putting yourself right in good range to mess you up with it. Gallente lives for blasters. Put that naga or rokh waaay the hell out, its like its there.
Doddy
Excidium.
#12 - 2012-09-08 14:29:10 UTC
NetBlaise wrote:
Players will only stay in a frig for a day or so, A destroyer for a day or so. Players will be in a Cruiser for a lil while trying to make isk to be a BC. that doesn't even take long


Not sure what game you are playing, i been playing 9 years and i spend most of my time these days in an incursus.
Doddy
Excidium.
#13 - 2012-09-08 14:33:59 UTC
If its any concolation ccp have already said they are ironing out the skill training for ships (no more needing frig 5 and cruiser 5 for command ships for example) so i imagine they will for mods as well at around the same time. Until then just kick yourself for training missiles in the first place, was always the easy way out.
Doddy
Excidium.
#14 - 2012-09-08 14:35:11 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
If someone among the replies could answer one question for me:

pretty sure Rapid Launch, Bombardment, Projection, Target nav Prediction and Warhead Upgrades affect every missile. Guided Missile Precision is the only support skill that doesn't, and turrets have an equivalent with the cap reduction skill.

So how do missile support skills not transfer, exactly?


Someone is just dim. GMP doesn't effect unguided missiles, other than that missile support skills effect both branches.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-09-10 18:19:40 UTC
holy crap. I am hoping English is not your first language cause, that is just... well terrible.

If English is your first language and you graduated from school then I truly am terrified of our future.

Holy crap batman
Michael Orlais
Cornucopia Ltd.
#16 - 2012-09-11 01:46:19 UTC
Training the gunnery support skills is recommended, if you plan on flying anything other race. Unless if you like flying purely Caldari ships, it will not go to waste.

You can compare energy, projectile and hybrid turrets. But missiles are in a class of their own because their damage formulas are very different... Aside from that, you should know that tier 3 BCs were all designed with a similar use in mind...using large guns.

If you don't want to train Hybrid turrets for the ship, then simply don't. It's not like you absolutely need the Naga for anything. There are stealth bombers and other things in the Caldari lineup that fit its purpose just fine.