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Incursions need to be tweaked
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Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#61 - 2011-10-13 17:47:17 UTC
I personally have a large problem with Incursions they are too hard PVe, require multiple people and the low end pays to much isk:

By too hard I mean there is a significant learning curve where loss is likley if you do not have an experienced group, but since it is PVE once you got it down it becomes a simple pattern, and isk printing machine.

SO if you are a lilot like my main I have to gain experience doing this, which means corraling a group togethor to do this or joining an unknown group. I ccurrently do not all that many freinds on so off to join strangers. So I face a choice pulling my abbaddon out a little overtanked, and maybe get stuck in a barely compentent group who is constantly gettting beat out, or pull my nightmare out ready to kick @#$ , hope to get in a good group and run the risk of losing a large portion of net asset value.

I also have to deal with the nightmare of short period players of sitting in channel waiting to join for a 1/2 hour, getting a group then sitting waiting for the 3rd logi for a 1/2 hour. then running a incursion, geeting some cash, then get beaten out on hte next two, having people people drop waiting for replacements, finally realizing you have spent your entire 2 1/2 hours play time for 10 mil isk,


This is oppossed to the "pro" 8 hour session guys who have more minimal downtime and know other pros and pull in 130 mil an hour.

So I am stuck not making good money, and the pros keep getting richer.

I would say make a "baby pool" for us incursion newbs to learn and earn our 40 mil/hr and have a slightly downgraded return for the vans and up the profit for HQs.

But hey people will problay find a way to game that system, I still will not be able to find a balance between time effeciency, isk and risk of loss.

Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#62 - 2011-10-13 17:52:37 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
I personally have a large problem with Incursions they are too hard PVe, require multiple people and the low end pays to much isk:

By too hard I mean there is a significant learning curve where loss is likley if you do not have an experienced group, but since it is PVE once you got it down it becomes a simple pattern, and isk printing machine.

SO if you are a lilot like my main I have to gain experience doing this, which means corraling a group togethor to do this or joining an unknown group. I ccurrently do not all that many freinds on so off to join strangers. So I face a choice pulling my abbaddon out a little overtanked, and maybe get stuck in a barely compentent group who is constantly gettting beat out, or pull my nightmare out ready to kick @#$ , hope to get in a good group and run the risk of losing a large portion of net asset value.

I also have to deal with the nightmare of short period players of sitting in channel waiting to join for a 1/2 hour, getting a group then sitting waiting for the 3rd logi for a 1/2 hour. then running a incursion, geeting some cash, then get beaten out on hte next two, having people people drop waiting for replacements, finally realizing you have spent your entire 2 1/2 hours play time for 10 mil isk,


This is oppossed to the "pro" 8 hour session guys who have more minimal downtime and know other pros and pull in 130 mil an hour.

So I am stuck not making good money, and the pros keep getting richer.

I would say make a "baby pool" for us incursion newbs to learn and earn our 40 mil/hr and have a slightly downgraded return for the vans and up the profit for HQs.

But hey people will problay find a way to game that system, I still will not be able to find a balance between time effeciency, isk and risk of loss.



Stick to lvl 4s dude. Maybe lvl 3s.

Mindless PvE best PvE?
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#63 - 2011-10-13 18:18:16 UTC
Can run 4s easily If I dont send my ship in then fall asleep Oops.

Can make money there just bored of them, the recent agent buff has killed lP prices, just wobbling along. Keep trying to figure out what to do, and get a little annoyed when the overflow profits seem to be acculating and the long term I know they will pummle me in some way. (since evee is more of a real economy then most games)
Maikhanh
Doomheim
#64 - 2011-10-13 18:29:50 UTC
Cambarus wrote:

IIRC C5s pay more than incursions, and tbh I'm not quite sure why people get so upset over 100m/hour in incursion fleets, a good mission runner can make that if he knows how to sell LP properly. That said, I would agree that there is a balance problem wrt the isk being made, but it's moreso the lack isk in low/null than it is the isk in highsec. As it stands, getting 10 people together in faction fit pirate BSs SHOULD generate more isk per person than someone can reasonably make on their own, that much makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that CCP decided to nerf most of nullsec, and the fact that the isk being made in highsec is currently on par with what you can expect to make in low/null.

If CCP made it possible to force incursions to spawn in certain systems/constellations, than said balance would be restored (because the payout difference between high and low/null for incursions is HUGE) But no, group pve paying more than solo pve is not a problem, it's common sense.

the problem is making 100m/h with completely no risk involved is ridiculous.

low class wh only pays out a little bit more than incursion and what is the risk beside disconnect?

getting blown up by gankers. I dont think incursion runners will ever being ganked at all while running sites.

for hi class wh, getting dread, carrier in is already pain in the ass. while running sites, you're completely vulnerable. anyone wants to gank you will succeed.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#65 - 2011-10-13 18:42:44 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Can run 4s easily If I dont send my ship in then fall asleep Oops.

Can make money there just bored of them, the recent agent buff has killed lP prices, just wobbling along. Keep trying to figure out what to do, and get a little annoyed when the overflow profits seem to be acculating and the long term I know they will pummle me in some way. (since evee is more of a real economy then most games)


Wooosh~
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#66 - 2011-10-13 19:17:49 UTC
Maikhanh wrote:


getting blown up by gankers. I dont think incursion runners will ever being ganked at all while running sites.



Lol .... think again mate.
Maikhanh
Doomheim
#67 - 2011-10-13 19:23:41 UTC
you meant suicide gank???
dude, that's because you're fitting an officer web on your T3 hull.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#68 - 2011-10-13 23:46:14 UTC
Maikhanh wrote:
Cambarus wrote:

IIRC C5s pay more than incursions, and tbh I'm not quite sure why people get so upset over 100m/hour in incursion fleets, a good mission runner can make that if he knows how to sell LP properly. That said, I would agree that there is a balance problem wrt the isk being made, but it's moreso the lack isk in low/null than it is the isk in highsec. As it stands, getting 10 people together in faction fit pirate BSs SHOULD generate more isk per person than someone can reasonably make on their own, that much makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that CCP decided to nerf most of nullsec, and the fact that the isk being made in highsec is currently on par with what you can expect to make in low/null.

If CCP made it possible to force incursions to spawn in certain systems/constellations, than said balance would be restored (because the payout difference between high and low/null for incursions is HUGE) But no, group pve paying more than solo pve is not a problem, it's common sense.

the problem is making 100m/h with completely no risk involved is ridiculous.

low class wh only pays out a little bit more than incursion and what is the risk beside disconnect?

getting blown up by gankers. I dont think incursion runners will ever being ganked at all while running sites.

for hi class wh, getting dread, carrier in is already pain in the ass. while running sites, you're completely vulnerable. anyone wants to gank you will succeed.

Getting 100m/hour is something only the GOOD fleets can pull off. Running around screaming OMG 100MIL PER HOUR NERFFF is absurd. For every fleet pulling in 100mil/hour there's 5 that can't even get half that, especially if there's competition. It's also worth noting that you really can't compare whs to incursions, because the deciding factor is not what you earn, but how much the loot is actually worth. Though still, it's more than incursions, so quit whining. The problem with flat out nerfing incursions is that it will put them on par with lvl 4s for isk making, which is in and of itself a problem, because something requiring 10 people SHOULD pay more than something requiring 1. Those same ships getting 100m/hour in incursions would make 60-70 in lvl 4s, the difference really isn't as big as you think it is.

Also the payouts involved in cap escalations are most certainly higher than incursions, and done in cheaper ships, so quit whining about how hard it is to get a dread/carrier in there.

And finally, as I've said before, the only real problem with vanguard payouts is that there's no way to force an incursion in nullsec, which makes farming them not viable. That 100mil/hour? You could earn 3 times that in nullsec, which is a much better difference than what you'd see with any other form of pve.
Goose99
#69 - 2011-10-14 01:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Cambarus wrote:
Maikhanh wrote:
Aqriue wrote:
[quote=Nikki Cox]I dont know if enyone suggest it....
Then factor that when a constellation glows on the map, attracts people to run them, that further attracts aggressive "piwates" and making it incredibly difficult to even get there when deep in lowsec....yeah great suggestion. People still generally do not run level 4s in lowsec (PVE or PVP, you can't do both!) and only the brave few attempt level 5, lets not forget that PVE ships do not even remotely fit like PVP ships (PVE lacks scrams, web, buffer putting the entire favor in the aggressor) and that sansha still out Alpha-DPS anything compared to what players can put out short of a Titan Doomsday.

this guy is mad big time because someone touching his wallet.

have you ever tried a C5 escalation, it can alpha a paladin from full shield to pop in one volley. poor you carebear only know about hisec.

btw, I dont believe you have balls to bring your shiny ship to run incursion in low, don't use pirate as excuses.

IIRC C5s pay more than incursions, and tbh I'm not quite sure why people get so upset over 100m/hour in incursion fleets, a good mission runner can make that if he knows how to sell LP properly. That said, I would agree that there is a balance problem wrt the isk being made, but it's moreso the lack isk in low/null than it is the isk in highsec. As it stands, getting 10 people together in faction fit pirate BSs SHOULD generate more isk per person than someone can reasonably make on their own, that much makes sense. What doesn't make sense is that CCP decided to nerf most of nullsec, and the fact that the isk being made in highsec is currently on par with what you can expect to make in low/null.

If CCP made it possible to force incursions to spawn in certain systems/constellations, than said balance would be restored (because the payout difference between high and low/null for incursions is HUGE) But no, group pve paying more than solo pve is not a problem, it's common sense.


Don't buy into the troll, he's just messing with you. C5 doesn't have nearly the alpha to volley a properly fit BS. Not just the bricky BS like Abaddon, I've even flew Paladin at one point (don't ask why...). Mom/HQ sites have have similar dps as escalated C6, far higher than C5, and can volley a BS. The difference is more organizing required, far lower pay, no caps, and depending on cruiser logi.
Maikhanh
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-10-14 02:35:44 UTC
Goose99 wrote:

Don't buy into the troll, he's just messing with you. C5 doesn't have nearly the alpha to volley a properly fit BS. Not just the bricky BS like Abaddon, I've even flew Paladin at one point (don't ask why...). Mom/HQ sites have have similar dps as escalated C6, far higher than C5, and can volley a BS. The difference is no risk involved, little less payouts, very good for hisec carebears..

prove that you arent trolling by using your main.

and fyi, I'm using my main.

btw, fixed the last sentence.
Goose99
#71 - 2011-10-14 02:48:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Maikhanh wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Don't buy into the troll, he's just messing with you. C5 doesn't have nearly the alpha to volley a properly fit BS. Not just the bricky BS like Abaddon, I've even flew Paladin at one point (don't ask why...). Mom/HQ sites have have similar dps as escalated C6, far higher than C5, and can volley a BS. The difference is more organizing required, far lower pay, no caps, and depending on cruiser logi. .

My main which I am posting with, is a mining/missile/drone spec char unfit for either incursions or c5/6. I have no idea of how hq or c5/c6 works, since I'm incapable of doing them, and am pulling this stuff out of my ass.


Since you were kind enough to mention that it's your main, I looked it up and fixed your post accordingly.Lol
Maikhanh
Doomheim
#72 - 2011-10-14 03:04:34 UTC
you're one good troll, 0/10
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#73 - 2011-10-14 03:25:05 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Getting 100m/hour is something only the GOOD fleets can pull off. Running around screaming OMG 100MIL PER HOUR NERFFF is absurd. For every fleet pulling in 100mil/hour there's 5 that can't even get half that, especially if there's competition.


100M/h implies you're only completing sites every 6 minutes. The good fleets I've flown in are completing sites every 3 minutes: this includes warping to the next site and people taking time out to collect more ammo.

IMHO, Scout sites need to be boosted to be suitable for small gangs (4-6 ships), with payouts at about 60% of what Vanguards currently present. I'd reduce the ISK payout on Vanguards about 10%.

In all sites I'd like to see extra triggers or variations on spawns. Rather than knowing ahead of time that you will face continual spawns of torpedo frigates, they'd mix it up - some would be neuting interceptors, others will be webbing/painting assault ships, others will be jamming laser boats, etc. Different weapon systems, and no more omni tank/omni damage.

Scout sites need to be worth running: it would be nice if I could take a relative noob into scout sites with assault ships or T2-fit cruisers, and make some decent ISK while learning how to cope with fast targets, webbing/painting enemies, long range and short range targets, etc.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#74 - 2011-10-14 19:41:07 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

100M/h implies you're only completing sites every 6 minutes. The good fleets I've flown in are completing sites every 3 minutes: this includes warping to the next site and people taking time out to collect more ammo.

As someone who can clear an NCO in 6 minutes on his own, I'm well aware of the payout times on vanguards. That said, you're working under the VERY wrong assumption that you have the option of constantly running NCOs. OTAs DO tend to take closer to 5-6 minutes for a good fleet, and a fleet that can clear an NCO in 3 minutes is going to take 10+ to clear an OTA or an NMC. In highsec, there's enough competition that if there's more than a few sites up, it's because they're all NMCs and people are waiting for NCOs or OTAs to spawn (depending on the fleets in system) Hell just last night I was running a few vanguards, and every time an OTA showed up, THREE fleets (not even including ours) would land to compete for it. 100mil per hour is what you can expect from a higher end fleet, because even if you can run enough sites to theoretically get 200mil/hour, there will never actually be enough sites available for you to actually do them that fast.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#75 - 2011-10-14 20:21:55 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

100M/h implies you're only completing sites every 6 minutes. The good fleets I've flown in are completing sites every 3 minutes: this includes warping to the next site and people taking time out to collect more ammo.

As someone who can clear an NCO in 6 minutes on his own, I'm well aware of the payout times on vanguards. That said, you're working under the VERY wrong assumption that you have the option of constantly running NCOs. OTAs DO tend to take closer to 5-6 minutes for a good fleet, and a fleet that can clear an NCO in 3 minutes is going to take 10+ to clear an OTA or an NMC. In highsec, there's enough competition that if there's more than a few sites up, it's because they're all NMCs and people are waiting for NCOs or OTAs to spawn (depending on the fleets in system) Hell just last night I was running a few vanguards, and every time an OTA showed up, THREE fleets (not even including ours) would land to compete for it. 100mil per hour is what you can expect from a higher end fleet, because even if you can run enough sites to theoretically get 200mil/hour, there will never actually be enough sites available for you to actually do them that fast.


Nope, you're wrong. A fleet can easily clear an NCO in 3 minutes and an OTA in 5 min. without changing the fleet composition.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#76 - 2011-10-14 20:32:46 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:

100M/h implies you're only completing sites every 6 minutes. The good fleets I've flown in are completing sites every 3 minutes: this includes warping to the next site and people taking time out to collect more ammo.

As someone who can clear an NCO in 6 minutes on his own, I'm well aware of the payout times on vanguards. That said, you're working under the VERY wrong assumption that you have the option of constantly running NCOs. OTAs DO tend to take closer to 5-6 minutes for a good fleet, and a fleet that can clear an NCO in 3 minutes is going to take 10+ to clear an OTA or an NMC. In highsec, there's enough competition that if there's more than a few sites up, it's because they're all NMCs and people are waiting for NCOs or OTAs to spawn (depending on the fleets in system) Hell just last night I was running a few vanguards, and every time an OTA showed up, THREE fleets (not even including ours) would land to compete for it. 100mil per hour is what you can expect from a higher end fleet, because even if you can run enough sites to theoretically get 200mil/hour, there will never actually be enough sites available for you to actually do them that fast.


Nope, you're wrong. A fleet can easily clear an NCO in 3 minutes and an OTA in 5 min. without changing the fleet composition.

Your point doesn't address the bulk of my argument, and a fleet that can pull off 5 minute OTAs AND 3 minute NCOs is the vanguard equivalent of that guy who pulls in 200mil/hour running lvl 4s. It may be theoretically possible, but it's far from being easy, even for the very, VERY few actually capable of achieving it at all.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#77 - 2011-10-14 20:46:28 UTC
Wait, so if officer mods don't go in incursions, where the hell are you supposed to use them? Seems stupid for PVP, suicide gank magnet in solo pve...? At least in incursions you have a high dps logi-supported fleet backing you up.

thhief ghabmoef
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#78 - 2011-10-14 21:07:01 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Ammzi wrote:


Nope, you're wrong. A fleet can easily clear an NCO in 3 minutes and an OTA in 5 min. without changing the fleet composition.

Your point doesn't address the bulk of my argument, and a fleet that can pull off 5 minute OTAs AND 3 minute NCOs is the vanguard equivalent of that guy who pulls in 200mil/hour running lvl 4s. It may be theoretically possible, but it's far from being easy, even for the very, VERY few actually capable of achieving it at all.


I am not trying to address the bulk of your argument, I am pointing out something that is untrue in your statements.
There's no "may be theoretically possible". It's easily done with competent pilots in ships with the right fittings and the right FC.
It's been done many times, it is being done and will be done in the future.

Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#79 - 2011-10-14 22:48:28 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Ammzi wrote:


Nope, you're wrong. A fleet can easily clear an NCO in 3 minutes and an OTA in 5 min. without changing the fleet composition.

Your point doesn't address the bulk of my argument, and a fleet that can pull off 5 minute OTAs AND 3 minute NCOs is the vanguard equivalent of that guy who pulls in 200mil/hour running lvl 4s. It may be theoretically possible, but it's far from being easy, even for the very, VERY few actually capable of achieving it at all.


I am not trying to address the bulk of your argument, I am pointing out something that is untrue in your statements.
There's no "may be theoretically possible". It's easily done with competent pilots in ships with the right fittings and the right FC.
It's been done many times, it is being done and will be done in the future.


You argue a point whose validity has no bearing on the overall argument being made, though to be fair I'm doing the same thing (I'm not actually against a slight vg nerf, but people going around screaming ZOMG risk free 100mil/hour annoys me, since the claim itself is about as accurate as saying you make 100+mil per hour doing missions; it's technically true, but the vast majority can't even come close to that.)
Sentient Sovereign
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2011-10-15 00:35:02 UTC
My biggest problem with incursions is the inflation they cause.
The LPs don't add enough "real value" to compensate for the created ISK.

I'd like to see meta 4 modules, and occasionally sansha faction modules get dropped (low chance though).
Pay would be decreased though - Incursion systems could be a noctis pilot's wet dream.


Aside from that....
Scouts need to be buffed, the payout is worse than lvl 1 missions.

Belt rats should have a bounty/drop modules/ or LPs and/or money should be paid out for killing the spawns.

Assault payout, HQ payout should be increased.

*maybe nerf vanguards - They are my primary income source, so I don't want to nerf them, but I acknowledge the arguments for nerfing them are compelling.