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FC Problems

Author
HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-09-07 15:45:16 UTC
OK so I have run into an issue and would like some advice. Hopefully this is the right forum.

I FC a lot. Like every night. It has gotten so bad that I am literally the first one off the field within 20 secs of the engagement. The enemy fleet sees me and boom, Im down. This happens even when I am not the FC (because they think I am obviously)

So I am now stuck with flying ships that either are ******** to shoot at or just heavily tanked stuff with 0 dps. I have asked for some advice from some of the other CEOs I work with and here is what I have come up with

Commandships
Cloaky Recons

Are these really the only options left? I dont feel like an FC can FC and be "out of the fight" in a cloaky ship. How can you call a primary if you are not right in the fleet? If your ranged you need to know distance, etc.

If you arent in the fleet you cant be an anchor point, etc etc.

Does it mean I should change my tactics and assign anchor , and have anchor "approach me" at all times so I steer? Fleet warps, do I have someoen else fleet warp and warp at range once the fleet is landed?

Kinda at a loss, its been a very frustrating two weeks....

Im also worried they will just primary the commandship. When you are flying t3 bc a commandship will drop just as easy as something else.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#2 - 2012-09-07 16:01:35 UTC
A lot of FCs will use two accounts, one cloaky scout and one command ship, or some other heavily tanked ship. The cloaky recon / covert ops is used for obvious recon before fight, and as a backup screen for target calling once the main goes down.

I would look into the Damnation...even a T2 only fit is a beefy tank.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-09-07 16:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabrielle Lamb
I'm kindof thinking that if it's really so bad you get primaried every single time, then just overtank the hell out of whatever you are flying. I'm talking stupid **** like dual X-Large ASB Drake with Rapid Light Missile Launchers..

This for instance:
Dual ASB Stupid Drake

[Drake, Dual ASB Stupid Drake]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II

Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Rapid Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


Warrior II x5

Needs a 3% PG-implant to fit, but it's cheapish and sports a 2600 DPS Omnitank. Sports 175 DPS with perfect skills which is actually pretty good since it's got very good damage projection vs enemy frigates. And with 40km range you can harass them pretty bad. Overload and tank goes to a redonkeylous 3900 xD Or more with the right implants


Veeery tight fit though.
HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-09-07 16:24:19 UTC
Lets put it this way, I had two logis trying to keep me up and at the end of the fight the logis couldnt belive how bad they wanted me dead....
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-09-07 16:28:34 UTC
HI3I wrote:
Lets put it this way, I had two logis trying to keep me up and at the end of the fight the logis couldnt belive how bad they wanted me dead....


But thats a GOOD thing lol. Imagine how much DPS they wasted trying to kill you while your fleet kept bashing away and picking them off! Rather then killing off the rest of your fleet.
HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-09-07 16:30:04 UTC
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
HI3I wrote:
Lets put it this way, I had two logis trying to keep me up and at the end of the fight the logis couldnt belive how bad they wanted me dead....


But thats a GOOD thing lol. Imagine how much DPS they wasted trying to kill you while your fleet kept bashing away and picking them off! Rather then killing off the rest of your fleet.



OFC and thats the point, but if we dont fly logi in a fleet it means Im dead LOL
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#7 - 2012-09-07 16:34:37 UTC
Heavy logistics drones from about 10 ships does wonders as well. I am assuming you are in Null fighting set pieces.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-09-07 16:35:51 UTC
Id rather not say hence the alt post.

So really it simply comes down to tanked out the balls ships only....

*sigh*
CorInaXeraL
The Dresdeneers
#9 - 2012-09-07 16:42:05 UTC
HI3I wrote:
Id rather not say hence the alt post.

So really it simply comes down to tanked out the balls ships only....

*sigh*


Recockulous tankage with help from the logi drones, I would also keep that second account cloaky on-grid to monitor as a just-in-case as was mentioned earlier. As an FC, to not put out DPS is a bit of a pain on a personal level, but if they primary you, then use that as an advantage point to hold fire and keep them occupied. Flexibility and adaptability count for a lot here.

Hell, you could probably even pull in some spider tank just because.
Jim Tudeski
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-09-07 16:46:03 UTC
You didn't tell us the ships you can use, you didn't tell us the types of fleets you are flying in, you didn't tell us whether you are living in high/low/null sec. If you WANT help, start by being a bit more specific.
HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-09-07 16:46:17 UTC
CorInaXeraL wrote:
HI3I wrote:
Id rather not say hence the alt post.

So really it simply comes down to tanked out the balls ships only....

*sigh*


Recockulous tankage with help from the logi drones, I would also keep that second account cloaky on-grid to monitor as a just-in-case as was mentioned earlier. As an FC, to not put out DPS is a bit of a pain on a personal level, but if they primary you, then use that as an advantage point to hold fire and keep them occupied. Flexibility and adaptability count for a lot here.

Hell, you could probably even pull in some spider tank just because.



I like the idea of using shield maintenance drones. That should help....
HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-09-07 16:48:26 UTC
Jim Tudeski wrote:
You didn't tell us the ships you can use, you didn't tell us the types of fleets you are flying in, you didn't tell us whether you are living in high/low/null sec. If you WANT help, start by being a bit more specific.



Doesnt matter where I live. I fly everything from Battleship down. We fly mostly Cruiser hull fleets (t2 cruisers down) as well as t3 bcs.
Jim Tudeski
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-09-07 16:55:45 UTC
HI3I wrote:
Jim Tudeski wrote:
You didn't tell us the ships you can use, you didn't tell us the types of fleets you are flying in, you didn't tell us whether you are living in high/low/null sec. If you WANT help, start by being a bit more specific.



Doesnt matter where I live. I fly everything from Battleship down. We fly mostly Cruiser hull fleets (t2 cruisers down) as well as t3 bcs.

Actually, it DOES matter where you live. If you had any semblance of PvP experience outside of blobs, you'd know that yourself. For example, if you lived in high/low sec then we could easily suggest you use Slaves or LG Slaves to help with your little tank. Are you flying in a close range fleet or LR? What are the usual numbers you are up against? All of these things would be great to know if you want a real suggestion. For example, I could simply say use this with HG Slaves and a Legion booster.
[Proteus, loltank copy 1]
Damage Control II
Centus C-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Proteus Offensive - Hybrid Propulsion Armature
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors


Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x5
Warrior II x5

539 DPS is nothing to scoff at while having 455k EHP with just the Slaves in. Blobbing carebears these days, far too worried about spies when they are already being primaried since their targets know that they are a FC.
HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-09-07 17:02:50 UTC
No it doesnt matter where I fight the problem is the same, but whatever Im not here to get in a pissing match...

We fly a mix of everything from CR, LR, etc. Its never static. As I said fleet types we normally take out are t3 bcs, and t2 cruiser hulls below. We do not normally fly t3s.

As for your question about numbers fleet sizes are normally between 20-30, Im not worried about small gang skirmishes because there is less fcing and more individual piloting. Its in fleets where it becomes issues.

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#15 - 2012-09-07 17:21:19 UTC
My very first thoughts were:
Did you bring this on to yourself? Smacktalking and taking credit until you achieved 'center of attention'?
Do you have a spy?
Do you not have a back up FC? Might be time to train a second and third back up.

My second thought is:
Use the info to take advantage of the enemy.
Brick tank and be primary
Speed tank and get out to range
Have your fleet fit for full gank
Don't aggress, just jump out the gate when you run out of tank
etc
etc


I have been there myself. I did learn tactics such as these. Another thing I stopped doing, is uncloaking first, landing first.
Even my own guys would remind me to stay back.
I just always felt I should risk as much as everyone else does. And I don't mind as long as the fight continues in a fluid fashion.
For awhile I did fly bricks. Eventually the enemy figured out I was the WORST ship to primary. *fixed*
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-09-07 17:22:14 UTC
Actually it doesnt matter where he lives or what his fleet compositions are (lr, sr, shield, armor etc,) it matters the size of the fleet and the structure of the fleet, (-20 or + 100)

Because of your small, (relatively) fleet sizes much of the post ive written doesnt really apply. but when you scale up past 50 or so it will. for your 20-30 ship fleets, I would run through all of the tactics you described, it seems the people that you are fighting are know to you and you to them, so intentionally over tanking a ship and flying like fc (but not being fc) is a really good choice if they are that determined to scrape you off the field. or cloaky ship for the added bonus of enemy confusion when they cant find you to target (but see you in local). Continually change your tactics to keep from stagnating.

Basically yes. FC's will be primary, using alts or other ships as anchors will help when you get alpha'ed to maintain positions and targets.
Role delegation is an important skill for any commander. and its something that you must learn if you wish to be successful in your position.

~ you will most likely be primary. this i believe you already know. so your job becomes that of a tank. as any other fitting will drop you out too fast (though in many fleet fights it simply does not matter what ship you are flying, alpha will kill you).
Your role is to get the damage ships to do damage.
~ trust your fleet exo, also not being the anchor will help maintain your fleets position after you are gone. and allow someone else to take over quickly when you can no longer see target ranges to call correct primaries and secondaries.
~ Some commanders charge with their men into the fight, some commanders have to see the entire picture. there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches and times when one is better then the other. learn these.

But it all boils down to - you are no longer just "one of the men", you are the commander and your role responsibilities are different. A captain has many of the same roles as a major, but they are not the same.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.

HI3I
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-09-07 17:25:40 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Actually it doesnt matter where he lives or what his fleet compositions are (lr, sr, shield, armor etc,) it matters the size of the fleet and the structure of the fleet, (-20 or + 100)

Because of your small, (relatively) fleet sizes much of the post ive written doesnt really apply. but when you scale up past 50 or so it will. for your 20-30 ship fleets, I would run through all of the tactics you described, it seems the people that you are fighting are know to you and you to them, so intentionally over tanking a ship and flying like fc (but not being fc) is a really good choice if they are that determined to scrape you off the field. or cloaky ship for the added bonus of enemy confusion when they cant find you to target (but see you in local). Continually change your tactics to keep from stagnating.

Basically yes. FC's will be primary, using alts or other ships as anchors will help when you get alpha'ed to maintain positions and targets.
Role delegation is an important skill for any commander. and its something that you must learn if you wish to be successful in your position.

~ you will most likely be primary. this i believe you already know. so your job becomes that of a tank. as any other fitting will drop you out too fast (though in many fleet fights it simply does not matter what ship you are flying, alpha will kill you).
Your role is to get the damage ships to do damage.
~ trust your fleet exo, also not being the anchor will help maintain your fleets position after you are gone. and allow someone else to take over quickly when you can no longer see target ranges to call correct primaries and secondaries.
~ Some commanders charge with their men into the fight, some commanders have to see the entire picture. there are benefits and drawbacks to both approaches and times when one is better then the other. learn these.

But it all boils down to - you are no longer just "one of the men", you are the commander and your role responsibilities are different. A captain has many of the same roles as a major, but they are not the same.



good feedback thank you
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-09-07 21:03:01 UTC
I see no problem in overtanking like a boss if the enemy is allways determined to kill you first. Even if you do close to 0 dps its an advantage that you should exploit to your fleets benefit.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-09-07 22:32:42 UTC
there is a proteus fit on battleclinic with something like 1million EHP fit that, with logi drones on you it should take a very long for you to die if you are lucky it will take so long that you don't die and you win because they wasted time shooting you.
Katalci
Kismesis
#20 - 2012-09-08 02:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Fly a Proteus, Damnation, Vulture, or (in non-brawling situations) a Claymore. Fly a hictor and don't put your bubble up. You could also get clever by flying ships that aren't generally used by FCs.
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