Wormholes

I'm in a (very) small WH corp - we moved in around 6 months ago to our first.

We bought the loc for an empty WH and I honestly don't know how we would have got in if we didn't. That being said, I don't really like the idea of a massive corp being about to come in a faceroll us out with easy (easier than now at least).

I like the idea of making it easier for small corps to get in - and in fact the idea of me and mine needing to work harder to stay in ours. But we need to make it not too easy to get pushed out by the big boys too. If POS restrictions are the answer - and I don't think they are - then maybe mass limits of those WHs need to go down too?

There are not actually many of the changes I'm happy hearing about. The current system does have problems with security, but that's an inheriant part of wormholes which I love and hate. Yes, there needs to be strict recruiting policy, but whether they can grab items or not that's going to be there. The fact is that I'm sure within plenty wormholes there are either people borrowing each other's ships or some ships owned by the corp to be used by those who need them. I'd like to possibly be able to have some more separation like there is in the CHA but for the SMA so you could potentially resrict access there without needing multiple SMAs. A log would help too, but of course once someone has stolen something and got away it doesn't help but it does mean they can't really stay and gradually steal things away. Security also means not having someone that can give intel away of who you have in the corp, ships able to be flown, where the bookmarks are. The difficulty in recruiting still stands(especially if you then want to make it easier to take down a POS in smaller systems).

It would be good to be able to fit subsystems within a POS, for changing fittings I can't say it's something I've ever really used or see as important. Some easier way of repairing would be useful too. There's also the lack of ability to repackage things and access/rename containers from within a hangar. But, we survive as things are and I'd rather see things stay as they are then some other possibilities.

Since we have no idea on what the issues with the forcefields are it's hard to give a arguement. But, I like the forcefields as they are, I like the look of POS' as they are. As it is, apart from just liking the look of the POS as a big bubble, I like being able to D-scan and work out immediately not just if there is a POS, but if it is online from whether there is a forcefield there or not.

Then there's talk of cloaking modules, should not happen. Wormholes work on being sensible, being able to gather the right intel. There's still risk, but at the same time if you're smart you reduce the risk a lot. Always a risk of a whole load of cloaky ships in system, but now there's talk of making it harder to find a POS. I think it's good just now, where you don't need to use probes, but you still need to D-scan. I think it's good to have to warp to a moon, not knowing how far you're going to turn up from a POS, or if you'll land straight in a bubble. You start getting it so a POS can be set up anywhere in system and you show me how there's going to be a balance between not finding it ridculously easy (defeating the point of it being anywhere in system really) or needing probes and hence giving yourself away.

Where POS size, or defensive capabilities are concerned I think that there shouldn't be restrictions. You make it easier to take you then you're making it easier to lose too. Easier to lose, more chance of people attacking just for fun, meaning that you're going to get fewer people wanting to put in the risk, or who have any chance of staying in long enough to make enough ISK.

Mooring I think might be good, but really I only think it's something that should be done with orcas and larger. You make it so every ship needs to dock or moor an it's just going to be stupid. How much space is it going to take if everything needs moored to one module anyway? I mean it's not really mooring if they're not still showing in space. There's not generally huge numbers of people in wormholes, but there's enough that there would need to be something pretty large to moor them to. As for docking, well I don't want this to turn into a station. A POS is quick and accessible without docking time, for null and wormholes.

Lastly, I do think that it would be good being able to remove an offline tower. There are so many abandoned out there and people don't really want to spend time/ammo destroying them. Some people may have inactive towers up for their own reasons, but then they need to find a way to defend it.

Modular stations I have no issues with, in fact I support and have expected the idea (as stated in an earlier post) but as for limiting size? If you're gonna do that, make it limited based on the skills of the pilot anchoring the tower, not based on the class of wormhole. By the logic of doing it that way, highsec should be limited to small towers, lowsec to medium and null to larges :P

What I am finding a bit frustrating is that it is becoming clear that a majority of players posting here wish to keep large towers in lower class wh's. Surely it is the job of the wh representative in the CSM to represent our opinions.

WH space is not broken. This needs repeating until it gets through to whoever needs to hear it. Two Step it is your job to do this on our behalf!

This as well

Put another way, under the current mechanic a common system defense strategy is : rely on apathy to ward off most folks because grinding a tower is boring -> self destruct all if the automated posguns are compromised.

This should change. The optimal defense strategy should be use a fleet, and win a fleet battle. Because fighting automated posguns is PVE.

I am not sure that lowering tower HP is the way to make it change, however. I doubt it will foster small gang PVP as two step hopes, since the defender will have more incentive to see the situation as hopeless and throw the "self destruct all" switch. Of note: in the experience of my corp, attacking people's POCOs is more likely to get them to sortie for a fleet showdown than attacking their towers. Perhaps what is needed is more destructible infrastructure targets that aren't also existential targets for the defender. Destructible modular services like station services in nullsec perhaps?



OTOH I can see how lower tower HP will cause more fights to start by accident, as it were, and snowball into something interesting. Apologies for double post !

Thinking on this further: the way the current POS reinforce system works is sort of backward. Attacker fights a PVE battle against automated posguns, then defender gets two days to form up a fleet to defeat attacker. Automated posguns are just barrier to entry for the fight; attacker must bring a fleet that is at least this tall, so to speak, to have a battle. Posguns also do not actually help defender keep the system unless defender is a bunch of insomniacs who are online 23-7, assuming attacker's fleet is indeed this tall.


What if the mechanic worked in reverse? Consider:

Initial battle: Attacker tags a POS as seiged with minimal work, and posguns cannot be killed at this time. Perhaps attacker onlines some sort of siege module similar to the SBU in nullsec.

Final battle: Defender gets 2 days to form a fleet that fights alongside their posguns, which are still alive. Attacker has to defeat defender's fleet + posguns to win.


Advantages:
1. No barrier to entry for attacker. All they have to do is tag the pos for seige.
2. No more boring PVE fights against automated guns.
3. Defender actually gets some legitimate terrain advantage in the fight that matters.
4. Less logging in to find defenses already down, leading to hopelessness --> destruct all switch.
5. If defender throws destruct all switch before final battle, attacker can just leave and does not actually have to fight the posguns at any time.
6. Defender no longer has to worry about getting attacked at Ridiculous O'clock because it's no longer possible to defang the POS while defense is asleep or at work.
7. EPIC BATTLES with folks manning guns while fleet action goes down becomes the norm

EDIT further thoughts: if the attacker is onlining some object to tag the POS for siege, perhaps the mechanic could be: defender has to blow that thing up to stop the siege, or else their POS continues to be vulnerable once the reinforce timer is up. So defender MUST sortie to kill it. Battle rages until pos+guns are down or until the attacker's siege thingy is down. Attacker's siege thingy could be a pricey item so you can't just spam it around to troll folks without significant cost.

I like your thinking of removing things that directly lead to the defenders going "well screw this SD all" but the dynamics of wormhole space and favoring the prepared kind of appeal to me to and to a degree if you enter WH space unprepared and ignore the risks you only have yourself to blame in the end - tho that said its a bit of a different story if someone drops a 200 man T3 fleet on your 10 man C3 corp very little in the way of being prepared can help you there.

Agreed. Preparation and proper planning should matter (and it currently does) on both the attacker and defender perspectives. If, as a defender, I spend tens of hours and billions of ISK making sure that my home is relatively secure (as a home should be) then that ought to matter. If on the other hand, as an attacker, I spend quite a few hours gathering intel, activity patterns, possible ship reserves, etc tha,t too, should matter.



Of course, If this happens then welp and there's really no saving the corp/wh at that point without hiring mercs for defense.

Yeh, I'm with you that posguns are not a credible threat against a prepared attacker, and don't really help the defender much in the end, under the current system. Currently the main purpose of automated POS defenses is to make attacking the POS annoying enough that the attacker wouldn't want to do it just for the reward of seeing all the ships inside self destruct. The explicit threat of "you have to fight all these annoying PVE guns and then not get any fight or loot at all" is the usual defense for most systems in wormspace. These systems are defended by apathy. And it is highly effective. Because fighting PVE posguns is lame.

If the attacker was prevented from killing the posguns until the tower came out of reinforce, it would be different. They'd be an actual asset for the defense to use in the fight where their fleet is in play. Currently they're not, if the attacker is smart and launches his attack at Ridiculous O'clock.

Furthermore, if the attacker didn't NEED to slog through the posguns to get humans to show up and defend, they'd also be more likely to try an attack and see what the defenders bring. I think this is a good thing: more sieges would happen, and of those, more would end in a climactic PVP fight instead of a PVE battle followed by an anticlimax.