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A Friend is joining EVE but not because of the Tutorial.

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Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#21 - 2012-08-31 23:26:33 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a well anchored 30 year old male I must note, that the anchor of the OP where video games are concerned must have drifted off at some point. Back in the day we had games that required mental effort and input to beat. Eve is like those games. No the insta-gratification drivel WoW, other MMO's, and console games have left your friend seemingly a tad complacent with, it does not supply candy in exchange for repeated mouse clicks. Maybe this didn't correlate with his expectations?

EvE needs no more tutorial then sheer curiousity... "what does this button do?". Thats how we learned to play a game back then, and the same still applies to EvE. Wanting to know what the button does, the balls to actually press it, and the patience to see what happens next. That can be something you easily lose of the course of the years.


Clearly it didn't because he ended yup anchored to such games.

But as for curiosity it's what lead me through the UI of EVE so fast as a 16 yr old picking up EVE for the first time. Less than 6 months later I was helping other newbs already.

The Drake is a Lie
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#22 - 2012-08-31 23:27:55 UTC
Have you pointed your friend at the Day 0 advice for new players thread? There are video walkthroughs, support articles and more!

As for improvements to the NPE, it would be really nice if new players were directed to check local from time to time, so existing players have a better avenue for contacting rookies and offering help. Sure, we'll abuse the privilege to attempt to recruit everything that flies a spaceship, con them into flying exhumers for a few weeks until they get bored and leave, but them's the breaks Lol

A tutorial in setting up EVE Voice would be wonderful.

Of course, I would really love the opening sequence of a new character to include waking up in a cloning vat (that scene could be reused for jump clones and medical clones), then walking through the clinic where their original body is being euthanised (i.e.: you are already dead, death is not a barrier), then arriving in a lobby where they can see other characters. Aura could be waiting in that sequence to teach them how to interact with other characters, and either direct them to their captain's quarters, or to the lobby where they could strike up a conversation with a waiting training volunteer/recruiter.

While I agree with the OP that it would be useful to have a tutorial tailored to weaning people off WoW-style WASD controls and normal/improved/rare/legendary items, how do we go about introducing the scale of the EVE economy to the new player?

Would an opening sequence introducing the player (peripherally) to cloning and movement controls have made life easier for the OP's friend? What about a tutorial in setting up EVE voice?

What if Buddy Invitees were automatically set up in a "neutral" standings relationship with their inviter, with the invite placed on their watchlist? Would there be a benefit in granting the inviter the ability to jump clone into a tutorial guide clone in the buddy's station when summoned? In WoW, you have the ability to teleport to your Recruit A Friend friend every half hour or so, which works on a different timer to the hearthstone. Would having your buddy inviter along with you provide any assistance?

There is plenty of scope in EVE for someone doing a project/degree/study in computer guided training to flex their muscles, for example. A combination of theory and practical course material for pilots to step through at their own pace (choosing to skip theory if they want to, choosing which parts of the course they're interested in, etc) would be interesting. Don't forget A/B testing.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dennis Gregs
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-09-01 00:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dennis Gregs
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
As a well anchored 30 year old male I must note, that the anchor of the OP where video games are concerned must have drifted off at some point. Back in the day we had games that required mental effort and input to beat. Eve is like those games. No the insta-gratification drivel WoW, other MMO's, and console games have left your friend seemingly a tad complacent with, it does not supply candy in exchange for repeated mouse clicks. Maybe this didn't correlate with his expectations?

EvE needs no more tutorial then sheer curiousity... "what does this button do?". Thats how we learned to play a game back then, and the same still applies to EvE. Wanting to know what the button does, the balls to actually press it, and the patience to see what happens next. That can be something you easily lose of the course of the years.

In EVE the difficulty is mostly in the user interface, not in the gameplay itself. That makes for a frustrating experience for some people. That's the problem and that's exactly what CCP should focus on improving for new and old players alike,
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#24 - 2012-09-01 00:28:46 UTC
I only pay 2.18 a cup for my Starbucks 2-3 times a day, and it's much better than the gas station coffee I pay 2.05 for in the morning sometimes.
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Tekniq
Bionic Systems
#25 - 2012-09-01 16:19:32 UTC
One friend did not join,

He only played the tutorial, then wanted to make a fight mission and couldnt hit the ships. He tried many minuts did not land one hit.

I gave him the formula. he gave up.

I told him what eve is all about etc. but that doesnt count. if new players wont feel the game they dont play it..

what really made him gave up is that hitting / killing a target / npc seemed to him like rocket science I guess.
Kyle Yanowski
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#26 - 2012-09-04 17:11:21 UTC
Just an update:

Friend will be joining RvB tonight. I'll take him through his first fleet engagement and ask him if his hand was shaking afterward. =)

Host of the High Drag Eve Online Podcast ( http://highdrag.wordpress.com). Director of Aideron Robotics.
Ryoken McKeon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-09-04 19:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryoken McKeon
This would be easy to orchestrate and would add a new element to the game: Have CCP set it up so that when the tutorial starts for a new player, another player is notified (something obvious, on screen and not just a mail) and asked to volunteer. In exchange he will be paid 50 million isk if the new player is satisfied (new player would be prompted to say whether he was satisfied after half an hour or so.). Have it so that players can rate their willingness to provide this service 1-10 (1 = never, 10 = whenever possible).

This would give new players connections as well. I for one got into this game, played out the tutorial (it sucked, but i was pretty enthralled by the stories I'd read so I didn't care) and immediately went into the recruitment channel and found a corp. Within hours I was experiencing pvp for the first time. Corporations who are recruiting would definitely take the time (money + a new recruit? awesome!) to do this. If the player declines the invite, just send one to somebody else. Shouldn't take too long to find a willing person, and while the new player is waiting (only a few minutes at max if implemented intelligently) he can just play out the tutorial.
Alua Oresson
Aegis Ascending
Solyaris Chtonium
#28 - 2012-09-04 20:04:11 UTC
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
Just an update:

Friend will be joining RvB tonight. I'll take him through his first fleet engagement and ask him if his hand was shaking afterward. =)


I'm quite certain they will be shaking. I remember my first ever kill. My hands shook so bad I had to log off for 15 minutes. I still get that adrenaline rush, just not as intense. It's such an awesome feeling and makes all the crappy interface worth it.

http://pvpwannabe.blogspot.com/
Totalrx
NA No Assholes
#29 - 2012-09-04 20:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Totalrx
I just did something I said I never had a need to do. Mostly out of curiosity, but still - I just created an alt. First one I've had since 2005. I went through the the tutorial and the career agents.

On one hand, I was almost disgusted at how easy the tutorial makes the game for new players.

On the other hand, I really liked the amount of work for new players that CCP put into created a decent amount of exposure to the different elements of Eve (save PVP of course).

When I started Eve years ago, making your first million in your wallet was a huge milestone. I finished out the tutorial with over 10 million in my wallet and that was before selling off the multitude of items and ships I didn't need or couldn't fly.

I'm treating the alt as a totally new player and now have it flying through the SOE Epic Arc. I have not given it anything from my main. It's earning everything it has.

The tutorial gives a ton of info. If a player tries to goes through it too quickly though (as most gamers do) they will miss crucial pieces of advice and guidance. It also will not make one bit of sense to them.

The amount of content in Eve combined with the near infinite amount of "what to do now?" situations leads to a very steep learning curve that no tutorial can carry one through. By all rights, unless someone has every skill maxed out and is putting eveyr one of them to use to full capacity, then we're all still in the tutorial to some extent Blink
Maa Ku
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-09-04 20:53:57 UTC
The best thing CCP could add to the tutorial...

>>> At the end your ship gets BLOWN UP by NPCs. <<<

Seriously, teach the new players to accept that loss is part of this game.
Totalrx
NA No Assholes
#31 - 2012-09-04 21:07:34 UTC
That's in one of the career agent missions. You go into a mission and are told to hold out as long as you can. The mission isn't complete until you are killed.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#32 - 2012-09-04 22:21:44 UTC
Quote:
The EVE tutorial needs to break a new players experience from that anchor, and the only way to do that is to create an experience so enticing, and so engaging, that a new player will forget about the WoW interface, or the Guild War statistics, and be immersed in a world unlike anything they had ever experienced. A fleet battle for instance...


Good Lord, you want battles like in "Clear Skies" inside this game with all the cinematics and WIS features? It's not gonna happen soon™.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-09-04 22:30:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
When i started playing, i learnt how to play mostly from youtube videos. I'm not sure why this can't be done ingame...

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
LilRemmy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-09-04 22:33:23 UTC
tutorial? you need to know that you will enjoy EVE way before that. If someone plays just the tutorial and decides to buy EVE, you must be crazy lol
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#35 - 2012-09-04 22:42:52 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Let's be honest, there's no way to make a tutorial that can even begin to get someone up the learning cliff that is EVE. All you can hope to do is show them around the interface a little so they can navigate in space and press a few buttons. Beyond that, you're looking at an endless tutorial that no one will ever complete... At some point you need to operate with a group of people to help you learn. Smile

Thank goodness for groups like Goons and TEST who do such good work teaching new players the ropes! Cool


Thanks, this made me spit beer all over my screen. Yea....they help new players.....learn what scams are.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#36 - 2012-09-04 22:46:28 UTC
Totalrx wrote:
I just did something I said I never had a need to do. Mostly out of curiosity, but still - I just created an alt. First one I've had since 2005. I went through the the tutorial and the career agents.

On one hand, I was almost disgusted at how easy the tutorial makes the game for new players.

On the other hand, I really liked the amount of work for new players that CCP put into created a decent amount of exposure to the different elements of Eve (save PVP of course).

When I started Eve years ago, making your first million in your wallet was a huge milestone. I finished out the tutorial with over 10 million in my wallet and that was before selling off the multitude of items and ships I didn't need or couldn't fly.

Blink


Yea I remember walking to school in the snow....uphill both ways.....Just because it was hard back in the day doesnt mean it should be be now....If a game isint growing its dieing.
Sabrina Solette
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-09-04 23:49:00 UTC
I wonder if your friend is a bit depressed at the moment, it sounds like he might be from what you said at the start.

If a task makes you think too much then it might not be enough to block out other thoughts, in which case he would not be very receptive to the game anyway. Where something easier and more engaging may do the trick or at least keep his mind off of his brothers death for awhile.

So all I'm saying here is there maybe more issues here than just the tutorials.






I've not done the tutorials since the latest change, but prior to that I found them to cover the basics of the game which they're supposed to do. It is a sandbox style game so a lot of people will finish the tutorials and wonder what to do.

I've thought sometimes that EVE should have two tutorials the basic one and an advanced one to do sometime after the first, once they've got used to the basics. The advanced one covering topics like PvP combat (Tippia), FW...
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-09-05 03:05:22 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
To use an example that Dan Ariely used in the book "Predictably Irrational" Star Bucks was successful of breaking a customers anchor to the $1 cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee by creating an atmosphere of an upscale, world cafe, unlike any Donut Shop on the corner. Starbucks changed the drink sizes from mall, medium, and large and created different sizes: tall, venti, grande, etc; essentially the same volume as a Dunkin Donuts coffee. Because we are human, we could drop our anchor to the $1 coffee and pay $3.50 for the same size at Star Bucks, feel good about it, and set a new anchor; all because Star Bucks created an "experience".
Vex you and your yuppie swill, long live the $1 cup of blue collar coffee and a $2 bear claw to go with it. No offense but it's folks like OP with their talk of de-programming and economics that kind of turn me OFF of EVE, as if this whole game were just some economist training sim and the scifi universe is simply a means to an end. I enjoy EVE because it provides a vast universe to be explored and experienced with others from all over the planet, not to tally up my billable hours on a spreadsheet that shows some isk/hr ratio. People who bring "wall street speak" into the equation leave a real sour taste.

As for the tutorials, yea they do kind of leave one hanging sometimes, but I think that in itself, that kind of problem solving, is part of EVE.
And this is a positive quality about the EVE Online entertainment service / MMO: people from all walks of life contribute to the gaming experience in different ways and with varying means of communication.

Nothing stopping a person from infiltrating the in-game corps of those who speak "Wall Street" and robbing them blind, right?

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-09-05 03:08:23 UTC
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:
Paul Oliver wrote:
Kyle Yanowski wrote:
To use an example that Dan Ariely used in the book "Predictably Irrational" Star Bucks was successful of breaking a customers anchor to the $1 cup of Dunkin Donuts coffee by creating an atmosphere of an upscale, world cafe, unlike any Donut Shop on the corner. Starbucks changed the drink sizes from mall, medium, and large and created different sizes: tall, venti, grande, etc; essentially the same volume as a Dunkin Donuts coffee. Because we are human, we could drop our anchor to the $1 coffee and pay $3.50 for the same size at Star Bucks, feel good about it, and set a new anchor; all because Star Bucks created an "experience".
Vex you and your yuppie swill, long live the $1 cup of blue collar coffee and a $2 bear claw to go with it. No offense but it's folks like OP with their talk of de-programming and economics that kind of turn me OFF of EVE, as if this whole game were just some economist training sim and the scifi universe is simply a means to an end. I enjoy EVE because it provides a vast universe to be explored and experienced with others from all over the planet, not to tally up my billable hours on a spreadsheet that shows some isk/hr ratio. People who bring "wall street speak" into the equation leave a real sour taste.

As for the tutorials, yea they do kind of leave one hanging sometimes, but I think that in itself, that kind of problem solving, is part of EVE.
And this is a positive quality about the EVE Online entertainment service / MMO: people from all walks of life contribute to the gaming experience in different ways and with varying means of communication.

Nothing stopping a person from infiltrating the in-game corps of those who speak "Wall Street" and robbing them blind, right?


Speaking of wall street, the occupy people blocked off busses to the democratic convention (didn't know or care that was still a thing)... but they were nowhere to be seen for the republican convention.

Methinks someone was paid off Shocked

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#40 - 2012-09-05 04:59:56 UTC
Maa Ku wrote:
The best thing CCP could add to the tutorial...

>>> At the end your ship gets BLOWN UP by NPCs. <<<

Seriously, teach the new players to accept that loss is part of this game.


Career agents have had this for ages. You destroy a station along with your ship; you make a stand and kill one ship before dying. Career also agents have a a pirate invite you to work for pirates in NPC nullsec, and guide you into FW, and teach you to hack containers in radar sites, and have you build ammo/ABs/shuttles after mining or buying the minerals.

The only tutorial you need is "click things, and right-click everything, and hover over stuff, and type questions into this little window."

Anyway, forget about doing something 'like' the Chaos Effect video. Just use that video. Forever. It was perfect. The "what all men should fear" video would work just as well for a single player game as for EVE. Show Chaos Effect and then a Nintendo-esque graphic of an attractive young lady clicking a right mouse button.
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