Wormholes

For me wormholes represent the last place where a corporation can go and claim and make their own. I think the idea of ownership is one of eve's greatest achievements, and certainly was the thing that drew me to the game. Of course i know now that its impossible for me, or a small group of my friends, to go forth into the universe and claim a small corner for our own. Such a thing is only possible for the mega Alliances. Sure, you can go and join one, and fly in their space. But it's not yours, you're just an insignificant cog in the Alliance machine.

I think the introduction of wh's has given this possibility to smaller corporations, as well as the larger alliances, to claim a single system to call their own. The benifts of being harder to remove from the lower class wormholes is countered by their vastly reduced resources and sites. The higher classes give far more because they are more vunerable, you have to fight to keep what is yours. Even so, with larger wormhole alliances changing their fleet dispositions to T3 cruisers, it is still very possible to remove people from lower class wormholes. If you've got the manpower, the time, and the determination to take their wormhole, then you will likely succeed. So i personally think making that even easier will just remove the possibility for small corps to survive in wh-space, and make it easy for large alliances to take their place.

100% agreed.

@twostep and ccp Dont turn wh space into the pile of fail that is nullsec i.e. if your not a blob alliance without half of eve set to blue you must be a renter. WH's have provided small alliances with the chance to pvp on their own level and are a great game mechanic at present.

I get the feeling some of the people in this thread cant do anything unless they can bring their dread fleet to the party (sounds like sov space to me.)

Why are we thinking of nerfing the size of tower that can come into a hole when a bit of planning can bring a large enough fleet into a c2 to remove someone within a few days? A wormhole is still 0.0 and high risk of being attacked/camped and therefore should be as defensible, not just easier to kill.

Are we going to limit the size of towers in other areas of the game too? I don't see much danger in highsec either all those large towers. What about lowsec? NPC Space? Is the issue here really the size of the tower?or something else.

If people who live strictly in a c1 or c2 cant afford t3 then the bigger alliances in their c5 and c6 should have nothing to fear about attacking with a band of t3's or bc's and certainly shouldn't have an issue taking anything down. it just needs commitment.

Two Step mentioned that he believes the process of taking down a tower should be an investment of time and resources. His idea is to only allow smaller towers in lower class wormholes with extremely high reinforcement times. Currently taking down a large tower in a lower class wormhole is a big investment in time and resources. So what's with the need to reduce the size of the towers.
Learn to adapt to the surroundings.
"Empty your mind...be formless, shapeless like water. Be water my friend." - Bruce Lee

You do not need caps to take down a large tower in a lower class wormhole. If you really want that system, then you adapt to the defenses. You move in your own tower. Set up your own stronghold. Deny your opponent the use of their sites and the exits. You break their will to fight. Then they either pack up and move out, or they attempt to drive you out. Either they see it as too much work to continue living there, or they fight to the end to maintain their claim in the system.



There is no need to dumb down wormhole space.

then limit the amount of dread that are able to target a Tower, like 3 for a Large one and 2 for a medium and a single one for a small.
would make some interesting hardships for those in nullsec also as they have it way to easy warping in 75dreads and just blap a tower.


tbh the biggest problem with shooting towers isnt the sizes it is the ECM problem, dreads in siege dont care about ECM but in low end WH space it is a huge problem especially for smaller corps that doesnt have the manpower to overcome a tower with a gazillion ECM mods on it.
limit ECM on towers to 2-3 per tower and the rest will sort itself.

The fact that these two posts are right next to each other is fascinating to me. In the first post, you have someone talking about how small scale PVP is what makes w-space great (which I *fully* agree with). The second post suggests that all you need to do is bring 15-20 people to replace a single dread. In what way is that small scale PvP?



This isn't true at all. Right now, with the current system you are limited in what you can do industry wise in a small or medium POS, but the *whole point* of this thread is that a new POS system is coming, and the same limits don't need to apply. Just because you can't react gas in a small POS now doesn't mean you won't be able to do so in the future in a smaller sized POS (remember, the plan is no more tower sizes, it will be all about the modules you hook up to the central tower).



No, I don't want a special rule. CCP is already thinking about a system where the size of your tower would effect the reinforcement timer. If that system were used, a smaller tower in a C5 or C6 would have the same longer reinforcement times, but wouldn't be able to hold as much stuff, or do as many reactions, or whatever. Again, all this stuff is in the minutes, please go read them.

As for your 2nd quote, I have no idea what you mean here. That invasion was of your C5 wormhole.

Across EVE, the game mechanics push people toward larger organizations. K-Space, particularly null, would have to undergo serious and fundamental change to remove or even mitigate the advantage of numbers. W-Space currently has mechanics in place that make it possible for small groups to thrive. In spite of this, the unstoppable advantage of numbers has been slowly but steadily changing W-Space gameplay. We now have several groups numbering over 500 (including my own) and one approaching 800. Fleets of 50+ used to be unheard of. There is a slow, but steady trend of players and corporations migrating to larger entities. We have more people among fewer groups.

Politics and finger pointing aside, it's an arms race where most people probably don't want to be that big, but nor do they want to be steamrolled by those who are. For that reason alone, we should not be supporting decisions that make survival harder for small groups. For the health of W-Space, we should be against any change that adds further advantage to the larger group. We should be actively looking for changes that motivate people to break up the power blocs and spread out across W-Space again.

For a small, young group in a low class wormhole, they already have no counter for superior numbers. AHARM (sorry, you're the best example) is old, rich, incredibly well entrenched, and can summon a silly number of capital pilots for their home defense. Groups like that can defend their homes outnumbered. Those in low class wormholes cannot.

Do not support a change that pushes yet more people into larger groups.

@two step

they might be thinking of but like you said none of this is set in stone. I just hope you take word to them that most here on the forums don't like what they have cookin'.

My *why* it would drive groups to be larger is that as POS are made easier to bash, it will take larger groups to defend them. This need will drive groups to either leave W-Space or will force them to join in with other groups so there is the chance to defend their homes against random invaders/POS bashers.

I also believe that when a POS becomes easier to take down, there will be more POS's bashed for lols and this will drive players from w-space. I believe that you will see a new subset of mercinaries that are strickly used to bash lower end POS's. Since they will be easier to remove it will be cheaper to hire these groups. I am not sure that this is the intended outcome of the POS modification but I could see this becoming an uninteded consequence of the change.

All of this would lead to the need for a larger group to be able to support and maintain life in w-space.

I hope I am wrong and none of this happens, but the nature of game play in eve leads me to believe that this is a very likely outcome for such a change.

Maybe the answer is to change the mass mechanic to operate on a one in on out policy

Sentries, man. We worked this out last time, remember?