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In general, which race would you say has the best ships and which would you say has the worst ships?
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
#41 - 2012-09-03 02:08:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Also, Minmatar as a whole is pretty bad.



Define 'bad', please.

I'd call anything that can disengage at will pretty good, regardless of any disadvantages (which they don't have have, currently).
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#42 - 2012-09-03 02:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Also, Minmatar as a whole is pretty bad.



Define 'bad', please.

I'd call anything that can disengage at will pretty good, regardless of any disadvantages (which they don't have have, currently).


You dramatically overestimate their ability to disengage and dramatically underestimate everyone else's ability to disengage. Once you stop thinking they're the only ones with that ability you start to see that they don't really have that much going for them. I'm not arguing for a Minmatar boost at all - but they are pretty bad on the whole.

-Liang

Ed: Really, if I thought they were any good, you'd see me flying them.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#43 - 2012-09-03 02:12:44 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

You can't just compare the ship to how it was. You have to compare it to the way it is.


Liang Nuren wrote:

In yesterday's frigate metagame, it was pretty darn good. Arguably the best. In today's frigate metagame it's complete garbage.

Unless you are shooting drones or Nos'ing to keep on tackle or using small sig to dodge gun fire or using superior range / speed to kite around blaster or engaging a T2 Ships with certain high resists.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Really, if you are flying a Rifter, you are doing it *wrong*.

Same can be said about dozens of ships you defend. Think I saw the Moa on that list of yours as a good ship. You know the one with the fat sig, crap cap, less speed then a shield can, middle of the road damage and half a drone bay.

Rifter could use a bit more CPU but it is not a bad ship just not the best, it has flexibility and advantages in other area's.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#44 - 2012-09-03 02:16:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

You can't just compare the ship to how it was. You have to compare it to the way it is.


Liang Nuren wrote:

In yesterday's frigate metagame, it was pretty darn good. Arguably the best. In today's frigate metagame it's complete garbage.

Unless you are shooting drones or Nos'ing to keep on tackle or using small sig to dodge gun fire or using superior range / speed to kite around blaster or engaging a T2 Ships with certain high resists.

Liang Nuren wrote:

Ed: Really, if you are flying a Rifter, you are doing it *wrong*.

Same can be said about dozens of ships you defend. Think I saw the Moa on that list of yours as a good ship. You know the one with the fat sig, crap cap, less speed then a shield can, middle of the road damage and half a drone bay.

Rifter could use a bit more CPU but it is not a bad ship just not the best, it has flexibility and advantages in other area's.


So, a few comments:
- The Rifter is not any better at shooting drones than many other frigates. It is actually worse than most.
- The Rifter's sig raidus isn't any better than most of the other "good" frigates. It's worse than a lot of them.
- Most other frigates have excellent slot layouts and room for a nos.
- The Rifter does not have superior range by any stretch of the imagination. No projectile ship ever will.
- The Rifter is just bad.

-Liang

Ed: Oh, about the Moa: it's actually got a slightly better tank/gank ratio to the Thorax. But with the new ASB it's actually pretty epic.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#45 - 2012-09-03 02:24:12 UTC
Gallente sucks (because of blasters+armour tank) the other three races are all fine (with exceptions for a few ships in each)
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#46 - 2012-09-03 02:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Liang Nuren wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:

Define 'bad', please.

I'd call anything that can disengage at will pretty good, regardless of any disadvantages (which they don't have have, currently).


they don't really have that much going for them.


You still didn't define bad, and I'll refrain from reposting their ridiculous weapon properies on top of their awesome platforms as mentioned above.

Quote:
I'm not arguing for a Minmatar boost at all - but they are pretty bad on the whole.


Minmatar boost? lol?

Quote:
Ed: Really, if I thought they were any good, you'd see me flying them


You'd lack the element of surprise - everyone knows what a minmatar ship can do because everyone flies them...
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#47 - 2012-09-03 02:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Large Collidable Object wrote:
...


Go ahead and post "ridiculous" weapon properties. Undoubtedly it's going to look something like this:
- Awesome DPS (LOLFalloff, LOLHail)
- Great Range (Only if you count the ability to hit instead of the ability to deal damage. See Amarr for great range)
- Damage Type Selection (It's such a shame everyone covers resist holes these days)
- Capless (True, useful when you're abandoning the race's greatest trait: the ability to GTFO)

PS: Learn to format a post.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, I think you'd do well to actually go see what you can do with the other races. They're pretty awesome. Also, I don't fly Minmatar because I think they're overhyped crap for the most part. Also, the Cyclone is epic.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#48 - 2012-09-03 03:52:04 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:

Actually, you do in a way, since they're the race most likely ro be able to disengage at will. They're easiest to just poke some ship to see what happens and if things go wrong, you just 'do a barrel roll', so either you win or you disengage, but you don't lose.


Disengaging, being driven off the field is in fact losing, which is the opposite of winning.

MInmatar ships die just like all other ships when webbed and scrammed, just a bit faster than the others, which makes them good primaries.

.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-09-03 05:28:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Liang Nuren wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:

And no - the Rifter doesn't suck, it's just a change from it being the only competitive T1 frig to one amongst many - people used to their I-win button for years may need time to adapt to that.


Naw, the Rifter is pretty garbage now.

-Liang

Ed: Also, Minmatar as a whole is pretty bad. There's a reason I listed so few "good" ships for them. But, dominance at the BC level provides an overinflated view of how "awesome" they are since that's the most common PVP ship.


True, Minmatar are terrible because of shield meta (including new ASB), speed, capless weapons, loose fitting requirements and awesome slot layout. The Tornado, Tempest, Phoon, Mael, Rupture, Stabber, Rifter, Cyclone, Cane, Command ships, Jag, Wolf, Vaga and SFI are all terrible ships and need to be buffed, and have all needed buffs for the last few years.

Indeed, Minmatar are the definition of terrible as everyone knows.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Herr Hammer Draken
#50 - 2012-09-03 05:39:27 UTC
The Borg!

"We are the Borg, lower your shields and surrender your ships, we will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own, your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#51 - 2012-09-03 06:24:30 UTC
Hrett wrote:

True, Minmatar is terrible because of shield meta (including new ASB), speed, capless weapons, loose fitting requirements and awesome slot layout. The Tornado, Tempest, Phoon, Mael, Rupture, Stabber, Rifter, Cyclone, Cane, Command ships, Jag, Wolf, Vaga and SFI are all terrible ships and need to be buffed, and have all needed buffs for the last few years.

Indeed, Minmatar are the definition of terrible as everyone knows.


Way to be stupid about it Hrett. But since you mentioned it (roughly in order):
- The Tempest is a battleship. lolbattleship
- The Phoon is a battleship. lolbattleship
- The Mael is a battleship. I hear it has a place in Alphafleet, but really lolbattleship
- The Stabber is total garbage and has been since the nano nerf. What the **** are you smoking?
- The Rifter is in fact garbage when compared to basically any other T1 frigate.
- The Wolf really is garbage.
- The Rupture is alright, but it's not even remotely the king of the cruiser hill now. Both the ASB and Blaster boosts ate into its edge of superiority.
- The Jag is alright, but the AF boost made it kinda obsolete next to the other AFs
- The Tornado has never been all it's cracked up to be. The only way it's not totally eclipsed by the Oracle and Talos is when arty fit. And that's pretty niche, really.
- The Cane is alright, I agree. I'd say the Drake, Cyclone, and maybe Ferox are better these days.
- The SFI is pretty decent, but I've never really liked it. I kinda prefer the Omen Navy for most purposes.
- The Vaga is pretty decent, but the Cynabal has basically taken over its spot wholesale. There's even fewer reasons to fly one these days.
- The Claymore would be epic if it were a Loki.
- The Cyclone is in fact pretty epic.
- The Sleip is in fact pretty epic.

But really, I wasn't trying to say that Minmatar need a boost. They don't. But they're damn sure not the "winmatar" bullshit you derps keep saying they are. They're barely even a passable race and if I thought they were worth flying, I would fly them. I don't.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-09-03 06:55:50 UTC
I honestly was poking fun there because I thought you were not being 100% serious.

But not everyone flys ships in the same circumstances as you (or me). LOL Battleships get flown all of the time in small gangs. Saw both Maels and Phoons tonight...

Your statement about Minmatar, while I dont agree with it, is certainly an opinion you are entitled to. Your statement that because you choose not to fly them means it is "barely even a passable race" just seems - not like something that you would actually argue...

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2012-09-03 07:43:25 UTC
Hrett wrote:
I honestly was poking fun there because I thought you were not being 100% serious.

But not everyone flys ships in the same circumstances as you (or me). LOL Battleships get flown all of the time in small gangs. Saw both Maels and Phoons tonight...

Your statement about Minmatar, while I dont agree with it, is certainly an opinion you are entitled to. Your statement that because you choose not to fly them means it is "barely even a passable race" just seems - not like something that you would actually argue...


It's really something that's meant to drive a point home. Most of the "winmatar" bullshit is pure momentum. It's certainly not because they're noticeably better than any race (and IMO they're noticeably worse in most situations).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#54 - 2012-09-03 08:38:34 UTC
The Cyclone, with the ASB's, is pretty epic. For a couple of minutes. With the correct boosts. If you can tank and jump or dock. If you can't satisfy these conditions, you just prolong the generation of a lossmail.

I agree the Moa is getting pretty epic with the ASB's these days.

Overall, I think the Angel race are the best ships.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#55 - 2012-09-03 09:03:06 UTC
If I am to understand this right...

Amarr are (typically) terrible solo, but great in fleets?
Marco Kerensky
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-09-03 09:16:17 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
If I am to understand this right...

Amarr are (typically) terrible solo, but great in fleets?


I'd pretty much have to say yes. A lack of mid slots leads to a lack of utility, and they're usually rendered sluggish by their tank of preference. You're big, slow, and can fit a prop mod and a cap booster, but not the disruptor + web + other ECM or whatever of choice, typically. (Exaggerated, but still the issue. You need more mids than you have as Amarr, but in fleet don't have to worry about most of that stuff.)

At least, that's all in my opinion.

Typically.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#57 - 2012-09-03 14:36:52 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
The Cyclone, with the ASB's, is pretty epic. For a couple of minutes. With the correct boosts. If you can tank and jump or dock. If you can't satisfy these conditions, you just prolong the generation of a lossmail.

I agree the Moa is getting pretty epic with the ASB's these days.

Overall, I think the Angel race are the best ships.


Not a bad assessment. It's hard to go wrong with so few ships in the race though.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#58 - 2012-09-03 15:58:08 UTC
Lilianna Star wrote:
If I am to understand this right...

Amarr are (typically) terrible solo, but great in fleets?


It's the nature of the weapon system.

Look at this picture. Blue's view of Red is Amarr's view of the whole world. Red's view of Blue is Gallente's view of the whole world.

The Tormentor, Executioner, and Slicer are all very good in solo frigate battles though: the first two because they can kite in scram range with a web, the last because it can kite in warp disrupt range with an MWD. In a world with blasters and autocannons in it, if you're using a crystal with less range than Scorch then you're probably getting significantly out-DPSed.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#59 - 2012-09-03 16:26:37 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Lilianna Star wrote:
If I am to understand this right...

Amarr are (typically) terrible solo, but great in fleets?


It's the nature of the weapon system.

Look at this picture. Blue's view of Red is Amarr's view of the whole world. Red's view of Blue is Gallente's view of the whole world.

The Tormentor, Executioner, and Slicer are all very good in solo frigate battles though: the first two because they can kite in scram range with a web, the last because it can kite in warp disrupt range with an MWD. In a world with blasters and autocannons in it, if you're using a crystal with less range than Scorch then you're probably getting significantly out-DPSed.


The Executioner can do the MWD kite thing too:
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31103
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31104
http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=31105

I expected a 2v1 but the 3rd guy kinda surprised me. I ended up chasing him after he warped out and caught/killed him.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#60 - 2012-09-03 20:35:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
...


Go ahead and post "ridiculous" weapon properties. Undoubtedly it's going to look something like this:
- Awesome DPS (LOLFalloff, LOLHail)
- Great Range (Only if you count the ability to hit instead of the ability to deal damage. See Amarr for great range)
- Damage Type Selection (It's such a shame everyone covers resist holes these days)
- Capless (True, useful when you're abandoning the race's greatest trait: the ability to GTFO)

PS: Learn to format a post.

-Liang

Ed: BTW, I think you'd do well to actually go see what you can do with the other races. They're pretty awesome. Also, I don't fly Minmatar because I think they're overhyped crap for the most part. Also, the Cyclone is epic.



You forgot great tracking - and I never used hail but faction short range ammo or barrage... Anyway - as each time the topic came up, we can only agree to disagree.

On a side note, I've mostly flown Gallente in PvP during the last months, not because I think Minmatar are overhyped crap and Gallente are 'the strongest', but because I was longing to fly anything else but Minmatar.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)