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Machariel or Nightmare? (PVE)
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Andrea Portaro
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#1 - 2012-09-02 22:13:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Portaro
o/

I'm trying to decide on which of these 2 ships i should buy.
I would use it for PVE in null (sansha space for now, but would like a ship that would be good anywhere mostly). The nightmare is very good against sansha for EM damage, but with a Mach you can choose damage types. It should tank good.. like DED sites 8/10 - 9/10 - 10/10 with all aggro (don't know if it's possible , but atleast an 8/10 solo could one of them do it??)
I don't care about which one costs more to fit etc, just want to know which one would be better, and if you prefer one of them, what fit do you use? I remind you that this would be for anoms, no l4 missions etc.

Would one of them be good at any sleeper site in a c2 - c3 wh? can they do more?

And also, is there any alternative to 800mm repeating artillery's II? Would take me ALOT of time to train.. any faction version or meta 4 would do untill i finish the skills for t2's?

thanks in advance
Best regards
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-09-02 22:19:55 UTC
well if you want omnidamage, the mach obviously wins out. the nightmare is a great pve boat but the mach is a great boat period.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Andrea Portaro
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#3 - 2012-09-02 22:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Portaro
Thank you for the answer, And also, is there any alternative to 800mm repeating artillery's II? Would take me ALOT of time to train.. any faction version or meta 4 would do untill i finish the skills for t2's?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-09-02 22:55:34 UTC
meta4 is 'ok' but if you want to commit to flying machariel, T2 is a huge upgrade

I should buy an Ishtar.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-09-02 23:11:59 UTC
Yeah, meta 4s can be used while you train T2. Most people I know, including myself, who can use the T2 800s use the cheap T1 ammo for pve anyways as the guns go through a metric crapton of the stuff. The exception would be Incursions, if you want to run those with meta 4 guns then use faction ammo and you might be able to get into a fleet. On the other hand, If you have the isk for a Mach, then spring for the Republic Fleet or Domination 800's until you can use T2. After all, what's another 500-700 mil when your talking about a billion+ isk hull.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#6 - 2012-09-02 23:39:47 UTC
Machariel have kind of a crappy tank for high end plexes unless you really wanna spend alot of isk in tanking mods.
Andrea Portaro
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#7 - 2012-09-02 23:49:21 UTC
Sure, i understand what you say. And what about the Nightmare? Seems cheaper to me , and i'm in Sansha space right now so it would be fine for me. Is there any fit that is really good for tanking and does even enough dps? I'd like to be able to run DED's solo (at least the ones that are possible to do solo lol) , i can't find any good fit atm.. and on battleclinic there are only old and not good fits.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-09-03 00:17:25 UTC
from what i know, the nightmare relies even more on t2 weapons than the mach unless you want to run with tachs, which again might suffer from tracking issues in DEDs. as for the tank, just use a cap booster + XL shield booster and rest hardeners.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Andrea Portaro
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-09-03 00:19:08 UTC
Yes i wanted to use Tachs... thanks
Julius Priscus
#10 - 2012-09-03 00:59:12 UTC
there is no question on what to fly the nightmare.

if you was in angel space I would of said mach.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-09-03 01:12:38 UTC
I can fit T2 guns on my nightmare and I don't. I use navy tachons. They provide near-T2 DPS at meta-4 cap consumption making them a much better choice overall. I'm not a "whole ship must be cap-stable" freak, but I do appreciate it if my guns don't go through my capacitor like a wino goes through an all-you-can-drink beer buffet. Four navy tachyons, at least when I last priced them, adds maybe 50% at most to the price of the nightmare. More likely it's only 33% unless prices have significantly altered recently.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#12 - 2012-09-03 03:42:10 UTC
Nightmare. Use IN Tachyons.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#13 - 2012-09-03 07:34:05 UTC
the nightmare dont really need T2 tach sometimes even people with large energy weapon at 5 still use faction tach you lose a tiny amount of dps but they use less cap to fire, also a nightmare with tach will never use T2 ammo, IN multifreq all the way.
for tanking one have 7 mid the other 5 so its kind of obvious wich one of the 2 can field more tank but i never used my night for plex (just l4) so i have no idea if it will be enough for high end plex, maybe in sansha space would be a not too bad idea to armor tank the mach due to much higher resist vs em/th but its all theorycrafting i dont have any exp in that
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-09-03 09:23:06 UTC
To mare wrote:

for tanking one have 7 mid the other 5 so its kind of obvious wich one of the 2 can field more tank but i never used my night for plex (just l4) so i have no idea if it will be enough for high end plex, maybe in sansha space would be a not too bad idea to armor tank the mach due to much higher resist vs em/th but its all theorycrafting i dont have any exp in that



While the machariel is traditionally shield-tanked to make best use of the low slots and its damage output armor-tanking it is indeed a viable alternative, especially if you can actually make use of the mid-slots for something other than cap rechargers and you have a solid reason to armor tank it. That said those situations are few and far between.

As for it being obvious which ship has the superior tank you're right, it is obvious. The machariel will have the superior tank. If you fit an equal number of damage modules and modules for making your raw DPS more effective (IOW tracking modules) you're going to have only 5 slots left on each ship. That's 4 gyros and 3 TEs on the machariel to 4 HSs, 1 TE, and 2 TCs on the nightmare. On top of that the nightmare has to face a minimum of 32 cap/s energy drain when firing its tachyons while the machariel doesn't. On top of that the machariel the machariel has superior velocity, agility, and signature radius meaning it will take less damage, all factors being equal, than the nightmare will.

Plus there's the whole tank-by-DPS aspect where the only NPCs the nightmare has an edge with will be Sansha, Blood Raider, and rogue drone NPCs, and how if the pilot ever gets distracted or stupid and doesn't shut their booster off in time the nightmare can't tank by DPS anymore while the machariel still can. /shrugs.

I wonder how many people see "nightmare has 7 mid slots and machariel has 5" and think that the nightmare would actually have the better tank.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-09-03 10:14:13 UTC
I'd say it's possible to fly a Machariel with T1 autocannons and do all right with mid-range combat, but if you're going to sink a billion ISK into a Mach hull, it's probably worth training up to the T2 guns - because a Machariel fitted with T2 autocannons loaded with Barrage can punch all the way out to its maximum targeting range, so with a few different ammo variants, you'll be able to fillet anything you can lock onto.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#16 - 2012-09-03 11:09:32 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
a Machariel fitted with T2 autocannons loaded with Barrage can punch all the way out to its maximum targeting range


Confirming that the Machariel will slap like a girl all the way out to it's lock range. If you're shooting EM/Thermal weak rats, you should be flying a Nightmare. Unless you happen to be like most of the sheeple around here, and just wanna keep bleating about how great it is to fly fast. In that case, the Machariel has the speed and sub-par performance you're looking for.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-09-03 13:14:53 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Confirming that the Machariel will slap like a girl all the way out to it's lock range. If you're shooting EM/Thermal weak rats, you should be flying a Nightmare. Unless you happen to be like most of the sheeple around here, and just wanna keep bleating about how great it is to fly fast. In that case, the Machariel has the speed and sub-par performance you're looking for.
(emphasis added)

I'll grant that against certain targets, like Sanshas and Blood Raiders, the Nightmare is the superior ship. But for a bunch of other types, you're largely dependent on the thermal component of your DPS, cutting your effectiveness in half, and if you go up against Angels, your lasers are going to be firing right into their peak resists. An autocannon ship may have falloff issues, but five-hundred-plus DPS at fifty klicks shooting right into a resistance hole will hurt, and the closer those autocannons approach, the nastier that "slap" becomes...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#18 - 2012-09-03 13:41:49 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Confirming that the Machariel will slap like a girl all the way out to it's lock range. If you're shooting EM/Thermal weak rats, you should be flying a Nightmare. Unless you happen to be like most of the sheeple around here, and just wanna keep bleating about how great it is to fly fast. In that case, the Machariel has the speed and sub-par performance you're looking for.
(emphasis added)

I'll grant that against certain targets, like Sanshas and Blood Raiders, the Nightmare is the superior ship. But for a bunch of other types, you're largely dependent on the thermal component of your DPS, cutting your effectiveness in half, and if you go up against Angels, your lasers are going to be firing right into their peak resists. An autocannon ship may have falloff issues, but five-hundred-plus DPS at fifty klicks shooting right into a resistance hole will hurt, and the closer those autocannons approach, the nastier that "slap" becomes...


I agree the Machariel is a good ship. I'd put the Nightmare ahead of the Machariel (without looking into it much) against everything except Angels though.

Falloff is the reason I chuckle every time I hear someone harping on about how good projectiles are. They're great in EFT... until you understand what the numbers mean :)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-09-03 14:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Paikis wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
Paikis wrote:
Confirming that the Machariel will slap like a girl all the way out to it's lock range. If you're shooting EM/Thermal weak rats, you should be flying a Nightmare. Unless you happen to be like most of the sheeple around here, and just wanna keep bleating about how great it is to fly fast. In that case, the Machariel has the speed and sub-par performance you're looking for.
(emphasis added)

I'll grant that against certain targets, like Sanshas and Blood Raiders, the Nightmare is the superior ship. But for a bunch of other types, you're largely dependent on the thermal component of your DPS, cutting your effectiveness in half, and if you go up against Angels, your lasers are going to be firing right into their peak resists. An autocannon ship may have falloff issues, but five-hundred-plus DPS at fifty klicks shooting right into a resistance hole will hurt, and the closer those autocannons approach, the nastier that "slap" becomes...


I agree the Machariel is a good ship. I'd put the Nightmare ahead of the Machariel (without looking into it much) against everything except Angels though.

Falloff is the reason I chuckle every time I hear someone harping on about how good projectiles are. They're great in EFT... until you understand what the numbers mean :)


disregarding tracking, you still do ~80% of your paper dps at optimal +1/2 falloff. for the mach that would be 800dps at 40km (with phased plasma). i didn't run the numbers but my guess is that guristas and serpentis have a high enough EM resistance to offset the nightmare's high optimal advantage.

edit: for sansha and BR it's tach nightmare all the way unless you have severe tracking issues (and even then you can probably just use a web to reduce transversal).

I should buy an Ishtar.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#20 - 2012-09-03 15:06:07 UTC
At 40kms, the IN Tachyon NM would be doing about 1,100 DPS with IN multifrequency. And tracking is not an issue at that range. A large chunk of laser damage is thermal with close range crystals.

I haven't run the numbers either, but it would probably be similar for most things that don't have an obvious weakness. I do know that the Angels are the only NPCs that my Nightmare has any issues with. Everything else melts before the purging light of my LAZORZ.
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