Wormholes

It seems to me the C5-C6 dwellers want to change wh's into Null. Bring in the caps, blast the POS. Rinse and Repeat. Boring.

To me, as a C2 dweller wh's are all about small gang PvP. Because a larger alliance cannot bring in the big guns into our wh it allows us to fight on a more even basis. We regularly fight larger alliances because we know they cannot just enter our home and destroy it in minutes.

Yes, I agree POS's do need a revamp but leave the basic mechanics of WH's alone please. It is IMO the best aspect of this game currently and from what I have seen so far generates the best PvP.

What, specifically, does a few Dreads bring to the table that an equivalent-dps subcap fleet cannot bring? As has been mentioned, C1-C3 has easy access to k-space. You can stream high-dps subcap after high-dps subcap into these systems and demolish anything standing in your way.

So what's so special about Dreads that some people think you can't shoot towers without them? Could it be something that has mostly been ignored in this thread when it was briefly mentioned?

So you want CCP to create special exceptions with no explanation for a subset of the systems in eve. (They are firmly agaisnt special exceptions, this is why PLEX was made an movable item, and many other things fixed and changed)

If you want to make POSes weaker in lower classes, then do the same thing for highsec where you can't use dreads either. Where's your excuse there?


Terrible excuse, remember those 400 russians invaded our wormhole systems that invaded our wormhole system on the excuse of expecting a fight? yea......no....

I, personally, do not give a rats about what happens in Highsec and would hope Two-Step is of a similar mindset. It's completely irrelevant to the WH discussion.

Two Step, I know I've poked you a couple of times about AHARM's attempt to bash a POS in a C3 and then the carnage that followed, but try to see it from the perspective of those of us who live in C1-C4 systems.

We do this sort of thing all the time. Yes, we even get jumped from time to time (though the more organized groups tend to have scouts making it less of a bloodbath). WE have to face the large dickstars with no siege Dreads, you don't. WE have to spend the extra time shooting a tower while hostile third parties could jump in on us; because these systems are so accessible from k-space, it could happen at any moment and local could spike immediately. We know this, and we choose to live here anyway.

No, I don't think anyone really enjoys POS bashing. Most of us just do it to provoke the occupants: if they bring a fight, we'll probably not finish off the tower, unless it's a medium or a small, or faction fit, or looks like it might be a loot pinata. Many times, my corp has left the system after a fight and allowed the occupants to keep their tower(s), just because they brought a fight. If they start smack-talking, we'll shoot up their fleet and taken down their towers. If they are good sports, we'll even give them advice on how to improve their setups.

But my point is that those of us who live in these systems know what is involved in these kinds of activities. Maybe it's a news flash, but you don't use the same tactics that you would use when caps are available. And, y'know, many people in "lesser" wormholes actually LIKE it like that. If we want to play by different rules, we head out to C5/C6 or to Nullsec. Variety is the spice of life, so they say.

The system isn't broken, unless you consider that ECM is a bit overpowered. The reason Dreads are so useful is siege mode and the fact that ECM doesn't work on Dreads in siege mode. ECM is a game changer. It was toned down on player ships some time ago, so it's time to re-visit ECM on POSes.

Should off-racial ECM work as well as it does? Probably not. There should be a chance, but right now it's far, far too large of a chance. An off-racial jam strength of 15 is huge, and on the order of a max Falcon using same-racial jammers.

Is the racial strength too high? Since you're not likely going to be adding more ECM batteries during a siege, and the attackers can always bring more ships, a near-guaranteed lock for one ECM battery on a single ship probably isn't too powerful.

Address some of the balance issues with CCP, and you'll fix any "problems" in "lower" wormholes. Don't try to change what isn't broken when you don't understand what's going on in the first place. As it stands now, you'd just be poking around at some of the symptoms instead of looking at the deeper issues.

Please do the right thing.

double post

Reading your 2 arguments there and thinking by myself that number three is making number 2 obsolete. Since you and others stated various times, that if you want to kill a POS in a C1-C4 you kill it.

Why would someone want to change game mechanics just to make things easier (for at least a part of the WH entities)?
What would be the purpose of making it easier to evict more smaller WH entities? Most likely not the fights the attackers are looking for, since those smaller entities will get steam rolled and the attacker wont get any fights out of them, whether they can use dreads or not.

BTW as far as eve wiki says, dreads have been introduced to the game after POSes have been, so there is no such thing as dread-level shields... it seems to be your personal perception on how things should be, but it does not correlate with those of many WH dwellers (as the response of several people shows)

TwoSTep wrote: 2) I am in no way advocating player limits or some such nonsense for lower class wormholes. My view is that because a POS in a C1 doesn't have to face dreadnaught guns, it shouldn't have dreadnaught-level shields and weapons. In exchange, perhaps these POSes would have the longer reinforcement timers mentioned in the minutes, especially if those timers required action from both the attacker and the defender to prolong. I think this would be a good solution to folks worried about having their POS randomly reinforced.

I'm puzzled. You say you don't want player limits on lower class wormholes, but then you say their POSes should nothave dreadnaughtlevel shields and weapons? Isn't that a limit on the players? Or do you just mean a population cap?

Two Step Wrote: 3) There have been some accusations both here and elsewhere that this is because AHARM wants to attack more lower class wormholes or something similar. This is total nonsense. If we wanted to attack lower class wormholes, we could certainly do so right now. Your 10 man corp isn't going to be saved by your large POS full of ECM, it is safe because large groups have no interest in attacking you. We aren't in it for the loot, which is pretty meager, we are there for the fights, and we wouldn't get one from a small corp in a C1.[/quote]

Okay, so if you are not looking to attack lower class wormhole POSes, what does it matter whether the POS is large or not, since you aren't going to attack them anyway?

My corp has been living in a class one wormhole for three years or so. We're a small, tight-knit corp, and we like being small in number for various reasons. We have had our POS previously destroyed once, and rebuilt from scratch afterward in the same system.

If our large POS gets nerfed we we can't use large POSes anymore, I suspect the the "little guy" corps like our will have to shrug and move elsewhere, if it is no longer economically viable in terms of time (hauling fuel through low-sec/nulsec to our static) or money (income gained from sleepers versus income lost to POS replacement). The longterm effect I see would be depopulation of the class ones and class twos. I just don't see any way that is helpful or healthy for the PvP community in wormholes. How do you think a change to the anchoring of large POSes will benefit those living in class 1-class 3 WHs, exactly? I see how it will help those in class 4-6--but that's not us.

Just taking the discussion in a different direction for a moment--it seems like all the current thinking is, "nerf POSes in class 1-2 WH because the current balance between defender and attacker is out of whack in favor of the defender." The complaint might be that folks who build a large POS in a class 1 or class 2 have it too easy since they don't face capital-ship size attackers (setting aside the issue of how much harder it is to haul fuel and POS parts when you have to rely on industrials rather than Orcas or freighters for class 1s.)

Just throwing an idea out here for contrast--I'm mostly joking--but if the real concern is balance between the effort of the defender to the attacker, what if the limit on how large the POS could be was set up not on class size, but rather the nature of the static? Say, if the system has a static to high-sec, it's nerfed so only small POSes are anchorable, but if it has a static to low-sec, it's nerfed so only medium POSes are anchorable, and it has a static to nulsec, it can have any size anchorable? Those that only have statics to other wormholes have the anchorable sized based on how many statics they have to other wormholes?

There is a huge difference between keeping your large POS fueled if you have to haul your fuel through low-sec or nul-sec than if you have a direct route to high-sec, after all. Shouldn't that extra effort to keep the POS running allow for extra benefits in terms of defense?

I understand change will come--I just don't want to see the little guy (independent corps in lower class wormholes) getting screwed over by something that can only benefit the larger wormhole alliances, especially when we've had to work so hard to build up our defenses to something survivable already, given our lack of access to direct high-sec routes. The proposal to change what POSes can be anchored in what class of wormhole seems as profoundly bad to me as the Goonswarm suggestion that grav sites be removed from wormholes from a few months back--no benefit to anybody except the one clamoring for the change.

o/

I also live in wh space from the beggining they were introduced.

Iam looking forward for the POS changes, but iam also aware that it will change wh gameplay. Personaly i would like to see ships docking up.

Maybe an idea at this point.
How about the Tower (structure) option to upgrade it, to spawn more plexes, or gas, maybe to influence the whole wh bonuses?