These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Amarr Empire and Caldari State aren't culturally homogenous

Author
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#1 - 2012-08-28 22:59:04 UTC
This is a frequent criticism or observation from outsiders, and citizens of these two entities often compound the mistake. This is because Caldari are taught to present a unified face and Amarr tend to divide the cluster into 'Faithful' and 'everyone else.'

This is not to say that they have the level of diversity of the Federation, but it's more accurate to say that there are five Amarr cultures, one for each Heir, and eight State cultures. Of course, each has an 'outcast' culture as well.

Anyways, I was wondering if maybe some Amarr or Caldari types might want to share what being part of Ishukone or the Sarum family means to them.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-08-28 23:08:15 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
This is a frequent criticism or observation from outsiders...

Just ignore them. They aren't worth the effort to talk to.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#3 - 2012-08-28 23:28:02 UTC
In general, I try to.

However, it's something I'm personally interested in. 95% of the Caldari I've met and interacted with are Kaalakiota. For a long time, this was my only model of Caldariness. Do you see the Kaalakiota as a good representation of the Caldari people?

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Mardon Hashur
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-08-28 23:31:10 UTC
You cant even look at it as a family name for the Amarr. All those familys mean is who has been loyal and politically astute. Culture in the Holy Empire is more along the lines of bloodlines.

Sincerly Mardon Hashur

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#5 - 2012-08-28 23:36:33 UTC
Several of those families have ruled over the same domain for centuries, and their policies and interests have given rise to different cultures. Everyone in Amarr space is part of one of those domains, while most commoners and slaves have no bloodline to speak of.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#6 - 2012-08-29 00:28:45 UTC
While I think perhaps you were being a bit facetious rather than accurate with your percentage of Caldari met, the Kaalakiota are indeed a fine example of Caldari people. The political factionalism within the State should not be confused as cultural factionalism. We have differing ideas of how best to approach trade and relations with foreign entities, but each of the Big Eight (and smaller megacorps) are all equally an example of our people.

As a child of Hyasyoda and current employee of Ishukone, I can speak from a trade-liberal perspective. Generally speaking, we 'Liberals' advocate stronger cooperative trade with foreign entities and CONCORD. As a child of Hyasyoda, I can say that my upbringing was very traditional and structured. Extremely competitive and motivating, indeed, which makes it something I treasure. I am not sure I'd be as successful as I am today without that. As an employee of Ishukone, specifically Ishuk-Raata capsuleer alliance... I think it is best to say they are likened to family. I share many outlooks of Ishukone, as they do with Hyasyoda, though I admit I am different from those who were raised Ishukone. I am perhaps a bit more aggressively competitive.

My specific opinions of the Amarr Empire are not something I would like posted publicly on the IGS. I would not wish to risk shame or insult to myself, my employers, or the Amarr Empire and its people.

I am not sure if this answers your questions, though you are welcome to ask more.

Katrina Oniseki

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#7 - 2012-08-29 01:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
While I think perhaps you were being a bit facetious rather than accurate with your percentage of Caldari met, the Kaalakiota are indeed a fine example of Caldari people.


I am not being facetious. About 95% of the Caldari I have met are from that company.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Devils Embrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-08-29 10:28:42 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
While I think perhaps you were being a bit facetious rather than accurate with your percentage of Caldari met, the Kaalakiota are indeed a fine example of Caldari people.


I am not being facetious. About 95% of the Caldari I have met are from that company.


Then you need to get out more i'd say

It's like they usually say about fantasy MMO's and men playing female characters: "If I'm going to spend alot of time watching this character, it might as well have a good looking ass".

Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-08-29 11:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Azdan Amith
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
My specific opinions of the Amarr Empire are not something I would like posted publicly on the IGS. I would not wish to risk shame or insult to myself, my employers, or the Amarr Empire and its people.


Fascinating. I would be interested in hearing them in a more private venue, I find that outside opinions shared in sincerity can reveal truths otherwise hidden to those of us on the inside. If you would be willing to indulge me, that is.

To address the original inquiry, I am neither of House Sarum nor a Caldari but I can share my experiences being under the guidance and jurisdiction of House Kor-Azor.

House Kor-Azor has always been a moderate family in the Amarr political arena, seeking diplomacy and peaceful resolution to conflict. This is something I have grown to admire and seek to practice myself, even though I tend to take a more direct approach when I believe it necessary. The current head of House Kor-Azor, Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor, was once known for tyrannical and unjust leadership until he was judged for this by the Speakers of Truth and after serving penance, has become a well-loved, benevolent and just leader.

The Order of Light's Retribution is borne of this belief that redemption can come to anyone regardless of the depth of their depravity if they commit to penance and that none are above the law and will of God, regardless of their position. Having watched how the territories under the guidance of House Kor-Azor have shifted due to the change in leadership, I have gained an understanding of just how importance just leadership is.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-08-29 14:47:47 UTC
The Relationship is less with the Amarr and more with the Khanid which at this time in history is a transport of a different color.

Both literally and metaphorically.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#11 - 2012-08-29 18:59:30 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
The Relationship is less with the Amarr and more with the Khanid which at this time in history is a transport of a different color.

Both literally and metaphorically.


I would be wary of mistaking friendship with sameness, friend.
Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#12 - 2012-08-29 20:50:33 UTC
What mistake?

The bonds between the Empire and Kingdom have never been better.

Greater Amarria as a whole is stronger by far than it was a decade ago.

Sharing of our scientific endeavours has enriched the both.

Why attempt to pour water on such a blessing?

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-08-29 22:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
I was born into a Sukuuvestaa tube-child program and raised by a family with a long and proud history of service to the Corporation. I was educated and taught my skills in a Peace and Order Unit paramilitary youth organization until I graduated and was formally enlisted in the Fleet Branch of Peace and Order Unit at twenty where I provided ten years of Corporate-Military Service to Sukuuvestaa. I was proud to serve Sukuuvestaa and satisfy my duty as a citizen through military service, I submit this only as preface to my thoughts in order to outlay my potential bias before I continue.

Institutional memory forms a fundamental part of any Megacorporation and every corporate-citizen is taught the history and traditions of their Okusaikan which they form. Sukuuvestaa Corporation remembers when it was the product of Caldari colonial expansion from the Homeworld when we sought to escape the patronizing of the Gallente and their Cultural Deliverance to find new havens of Caldari freedom and liberty among the stars and in the void of space upon the creation of the VH-451 stargate and Sotiyo-Urbaata drive. It was through determination, courage and ambition that these Caldari colonial enterprises succeeded in their aims of creating new homes for our people.

The Federation was formed to unite these colonies under the principles of of equality and democracy but it become increasingly clear that the Federal government was nothing more than the tool of Gallentean economic exploitation and cultural prejudice over what were once independent Caldari colonies. Sukuuvestaa was the product of proud Caldari colonial independence and the merger of the private development firms that built those worlds. A corporate bastion to defend the rights, lives and liberties of Caldari colonies against the predations of an unjust and corrupt Gallentean government in their affairs. It was the Federation and the Gallente through legislation created to serve their own interests to the detriment of the Caldari that drove Sukuuvestaa to seek new worlds outside of their control.

The Caldari State would not even exist if not for Sukuuvestaa forward thinking in constructing and developing new worlds for the Caldari people beyond the control of Federal oppression at great cost in blood, lives and fortune that was accomplished only through determination and perseverence in the face of ever present dangers. For the almost half of Caldari territory that Sukuuvestaa Corporation currently owns, the vast majority of those worlds can trace their history back to the first founding by Sukuuvestaa. It was Sukuuvestaa that built the new Homeland during the Exodus and the Caldari War of Independence and provided the colonial infrastructure for other Megacorporations to use in the defence of the fledgling Caldari State.

To be a Sukuuvestaa citizen then is to never forget our heritage and to honour the sacrifices of our ancesters paid for in blood. It is that debt that can never be repaid that drives us to fulfill the legacy of never stopping in seeking to build a better State. The dictates of duty prescribe nothing less than constant vigilance to ensure that neither the Caldari State nor Sukuuvestaa shall ever again languish under foreign dominance. We shall always remember our forging in the fires of War, and it is only through constant conflict and competition do we seek to rekindle our passions for perfection and burn away our weakness and imperfections until only the hardened steel remains to be moulded into the weapons by which we shall strike down our enemies wherever they may be found - whether they corrupt us from within or threaten us from without.

Whether one raises their banners on the fields of battle or in the boardroom, if the enemy is a soldier or an executive is irrelevant: Final Victory is all that matters. There is very little difference indeed between War, Business and Politics for all three are intertwined and integrated and those who fail to realize their intrinsic relationship will not know success in their endeavours. One must seek to cultivate a spirit weathered by the harsh winds and a heart as cold as the snow for when fighting in the interests of Sukuuvestaa and the State in any field or profession there can be little room for compassion, forgiveness or mercy when the only rewards for a failure in duty are dishonour, disgrace or death. In holding oneself to these standards does it inculcate in others the virtues required to serve Sukuuvestaa and the State with honour and dignity.

This, I would say is the essential philosophy behind Sukuuvestaa. Many in the State and elsewhere have often labeled Sukuuvestaa as pragmatic and ruthless: I would not disagree. Survival requires such qualities in order to triumph, and in life as in nature it is only those who are the strongest, the most adaptable to different circumstances, the most flexible in a changing world, who shall prevail. There can be no room for weakness in battles of the survival of the fittest and in the end it is far better to be feared than loved in the arenas of business and politics. Those who pander to the interests of those outside of Sukuuvestaa and the Caldari State are unworthy of either and are nothing short of traitors to both.

[Continued.]

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-08-29 22:09:50 UTC
[Continued.]

In terms of corporate culture I believe the greatest difference is the traditional relationship Sukuuvestaa Corporation has with the Achuran people. The Achur are valued for they provide temperence, wise counsel and foresight, acting to check the at times aggressive and bold nature of Sukuuvestaa leadership. The wisdom and insights of the Achur are like the hidden currents within Sukuuvestaa, at times unseen but always felt. Of all the Megacorporations it is perhaps Sukuuvestaa where the culture and thinking of Saisio and the Achur have permeated and manifested itself most fully and the exchange has been mutually beneficial for those Achur that choose employment with Sukuuvestaa.

The relationship with the Achur also reflects the values of Sukuuvestaa in engaging with those outside of the State: It is only through tolerance, respect and understanding do we not repeat the mistakes of the Federation and become ignorant of the importance of history, tradition and culture of those people that are not our own and curiosity and understanding of those who come from outside the State is important in dealings with them. Ethnicity or foreign culture should not come to be barriers to corporate employment or alliance if interests are aligned and values are shared openly. Diversity of thought and opinion creates new opportunities and markets if one is willing to maintain an open and keen mind.

It should be noted however, that even with all its strength and the privileged position its Chief Executive holds as the State Executor, Kaalakiota Corporation is not by any means the entirety of the Caldari State. The Caldari State is the sum total of every corporate citizen of the Eight Megacorporations and it is still led by the Chief Executive Panel and the Boards of Directors of the Megacorporations who just as they rule, so do they serve their citizens. To imply anything less would be a direct insult to any who are not citizens of Kaalakiota.

My apologies for my brevity, Lady Hanaya, but I hope my thoughts have proven useful in your desire for understanding. Do note however, they are but my own and I am still but one among many in Sukuuvestaa.


Kurilaivonen|Concern

Mardon Hashur
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-08-29 22:26:23 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Several of those families have ruled over the same domain for centuries, and their policies and interests have given rise to different cultures. Everyone in Amarr space is part of one of those domains, while most commoners and slaves have no bloodline to speak of.


Your right in some ways on this one. The different cultures you speak of are only slightly different form each other and the differences in culture are not very large ones but on some small level they do exist but not on the level to call them completely different cultures

Sincerly Mardon Hashur

Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#16 - 2012-08-30 05:06:16 UTC
While anyone can appreciate the variations and diversity, they are still culturally homogeneous when compared to the Federation. There are thousands of distinct ethnic groups, languages, religions, and cultures on hundreds of different worlds, then divided by countless planetside countries.

Meanwhile, there is only one legal religion (including denominations) in the massive Amarrian Empire, and all Caldari are expected to serve the Caldari State. You will find many member countries in the Federation that resemble these two sovereignties on a much smaller scale, with some democratic governance thrown in. Power descends from the top in the Amarr and Caldari star empires; not so in the Federation.

Besides, measuring cultural homogeneity is relative, no? You'll need to measure the Amarr and Caldari up against others, and that is the Federation. Which they both lose by a long shot.

That's our defining feature, is this diversity, just like collectivism is the defining feature of the Caldari. Members of other empires always try to pursue this label, as if to not be diverse is a bad thing, as if diversity was a universally positive trait. There is often disunity in diversity, and the Federation is known for its frequent disunity and fragmentation. For absolute styles of governance in the State and Empire, diversity would be seen as something that could destabilize. Everyone attempts to be very Gallentean in trying to apply what are typically seen as positive Federal values to their own sovereignties, without considering each of these have their own values that are distinct.
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-08-30 05:39:43 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
For absolute styles of governance in the State and Empire, diversity would be seen as something that could destabilize.


Exactly. Look at my rack of plates, each of the plates is distinctive and separate but combines to form my dinner service. If I toss the rack in the air and let the plates all shatter, their shards mingling in with each other, are they more diverse? Yes. Is my dinner service better for that? No.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-08-30 07:26:10 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
While anyone can appreciate the variations and diversity, they are still culturally homogeneous when compared to the Federation. There are thousands of distinct ethnic groups, languages, religions, and cultures on hundreds of different worlds, then divided by countless planetside countries.

Meanwhile, there is only one legal religion (including denominations) in the massive Amarrian Empire, and all Caldari are expected to serve the Caldari State. You will find many member countries in the Federation that resemble these two sovereignties on a much smaller scale, with some democratic governance thrown in. Power descends from the top in the Amarr and Caldari star empires; not so in the Federation.

Besides, measuring cultural homogeneity is relative, no? You'll need to measure the Amarr and Caldari up against others, and that is the Federation. Which they both lose by a long shot.

That's our defining feature, is this diversity, just like collectivism is the defining feature of the Caldari. Members of other empires always try to pursue this label, as if to not be diverse is a bad thing, as if diversity was a universally positive trait. There is often disunity in diversity, and the Federation is known for its frequent disunity and fragmentation. For absolute styles of governance in the State and Empire, diversity would be seen as something that could destabilize. Everyone attempts to be very Gallentean in trying to apply what are typically seen as positive Federal values to their own sovereignties, without considering each of these have their own values that are distinct.


Absolutism in the State would imply that all power is centralized in State Executor Tibus Heth, which it is not. The position is one granted to ensure effective leadership and command of the Caldari State during wartime and the powers granted are reflected in that role. It is not a political position and still requires the continued support of the Chief Executive Panel for it to be granted. President Roden as Commander-in-Chief of the Federation holds a similar role as the State Executor during wartime - would that make the Federation an absolutist regime also?

The Caldari State is neither Absolutist nor is it politically or economically Collectivist for it is a Megacorporate Confederacy with staunch meritocratic and capitalist principles and power invested in the board of the Chief Executive Panel to effect decisions in the interests of the State through the consensus of its members. I would myself say the defining features of being Caldari are the unifying concepts of shared culture, history and tradition. Diversity is then the differing opinions, interests, and worldview of both citizen and Megacorporation on a variety of topics and how they decide to engage in the cultural life of the State.

The true shame is to equate diversity with the form of individualism espoused by Gallentean liberalism. In the State, one can still be an individual holding a diversity of views whilst still being part of a living and shared culture. Those who cannot understand that then do no not know the true meaning of culture and seek to apply rationalism and political science to a product of human nature, feeling and emotion without realizing that it is impossible to quantify those essential and vital elements that motivate our passions and drive our souls. For without culture and tradition then a human being is an empty shell devoid of purpose or worth. Every State citizen is still an individual and how they choose to interact with society and accept the maxims of culture are theirs and their alone to make.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#19 - 2012-09-01 15:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Katherine Devonshire
The Caldari may not share our beliefs, but at least they believe in something. This sense of devotion is a common thread we share, even if it is to different causes. And though for different reasons we are similar in our conclusions: A strong sense of patriotism to our respective governments. The Caldari seek to peacefully spread their culture through boardrooms and businessmen while we seek to peacefully spread ours through temples and priests. When peace fails neither are hesitant to respond with entire fleets on a moment's notice, for both of our central governments and our navies are strong and decisive.

We have also gained much from each other in more than simple trade or science. In one hand you can see we Amarrians constantly striving for perfection & unity of purpose with the spiritual world, and in the other hand we can see the Caldari doing the same for the material world. Where our cultures meet and overlap is where humanity will come to see the unity & perfection of both Heaven and Earth. Through exchanges in trade & lesson in economics, the Caldari fill the gaps of the Needs of the Body that we Amarrians had been sadly neglecting. In return we can offer our theology, art and spiritual guidance to nourish the Needs of Soul.

I may seem that two such entities would be more likely to compete than cooperate, but this is not the case. We Ammar live in a theocracy, with church and state being one and the same. The Caldari are a sharp contrast, with religion having no influence in their government at all. But it is precisely because of this that our religion is of no threat to the Caldari, for even if every last member of their society were to embrace our Faith I seriously doubt that it would affect their actual government in any way. Likewise, material wealth and such are not the true goals of the Amarrian people, and so no amount of Caldari driven prosperity (though certainly welcome) will change our essentially spiritual nature, either.

We are thus capable of this symbiosis because both of our cultures & governments are strong enough (or at least set in their ways enough) to not be threatened by the influences of the other, for these emigrating influences are precisely in arenas that the other society are most lacking.

You can even see it in the most minute of details, such as the legendary strength of Caldari shield technologies and the legendary strength of Amarr armor crafting, or the devastating power power of their missiles and the endless endurance of our lasers. Just as our fleets augment and strengthen each other so do our cultures.
zacharia Mindu
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-09-02 02:08:46 UTC
In my opinion the caldari fight for the state which means there patriotic and the amarr fight for the empire and the empress which is also patriotic culture wise there different and beautifully unique. But both fight for patriotic princaples, and who's to say caldari can't believe in the amarrian god. Or a amarrian can't fight for a caldari cooperation there apart of.

"There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace For those who bear witness to these Signs And still do not believe." -The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 25:10