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Why Ninja Salvaging should be considered an exploit
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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2012-09-01 15:50:58 UTC
"Waaah someone stole my spacejunk! Where's my blankie?"

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#102 - 2012-09-01 15:58:55 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
"Waaah someone stole my spacejunk! Where's my blankie?"


Somebody just ninja'd it Twisted

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#103 - 2012-09-01 17:24:59 UTC
Wurst thrat evar!

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Savnire Jacitu
Undead Retirement Crypt
#104 - 2012-09-01 17:44:55 UTC
Just blow your wrecks up whenever they come. That's what I do.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#105 - 2012-09-01 19:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
John Ratcliffe wrote:
100% agree with OP. Loot ninjas are ******* scum bags who should be Concorded dry up the @rse. Why they can't just run their own missions is beyond me.


I made my first billion as a "binman," even just "legitimately" salvaging without looting most of the time, and very rarely getting shot at (the mission-bears in Emolgranlan seem rather jaded, although I got some hilarious hate-mails for my efforts!).

All this before I hit 5mn SP, the same money would have taken a lot longer grinding up from zero with missions. Been there/done it, never ever want to do it again.

I also learned how to probe --well-- and a few finer points of the d-scanner, how to "hunt" using a combination of both, and how to run/hide when being hunted, and how long I can stay in my site/plex even with hostiles in local, all of which serve me, and will serve me the rest of my "life" in EVE, not least of all now as a full time mostly losec explorer.

Oh yeah, if I'm in a mission, and I'm going to get ninja'ed, then I usually see them coming a long ways off...

You can't get that from constantly shooting red crosses with an AI that would have been considered primitive 20 years ago.

You can however, get really, really bored and frustrated, really, really quickly.

Besides, if I ever need to mission, then having done up to final level 3 in the Caldari COSMOS arc has got me any level 4 agent I want across 4 factions...Those missions, at least, are challenging, and have a cool and fun storyline, plus interesting (if not always really useful) rewards.

TL/DR:

Because regular missions are gratingly tedious, and don't really teach/gain you much beyond the first few weeks.

E:

Assorted grammar- and typing-fail.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Oraac Ensor
#106 - 2012-09-01 19:21:19 UTC
This has to be a troll.

Otherwise we're expected to believe that the OP has been playing EVE for over 4 years but still doesn't understand the difference between an exploit and intended gameplay.

Likely? I think not.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#107 - 2012-09-01 19:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
Oraac Ensor wrote:
This has to be a troll.

Otherwise we're expected to believe that the OP has been playing EVE for over 4 years but still doesn't understand the difference between an exploit and intended gameplay.

Likely? I think not.


I dunno, maing...

I misremember the exact source now, but I've heard of some carebears who've been in since 2003-04 who did not know the mechanics behind how they could be attacked in hisec without their attacker getting CONCORD'ed.

I mean, really: These are basic, basic mechanics --most of us usually learn the hard way how they work within 3-4 months at most.

I guess there are carebears, and then there are freakin' carebears, ya know?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Doddy
Excidium.
#108 - 2012-09-01 19:35:02 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
Yes, they're annoying, yes they're carebears who prey on mission runners, and yes most of them are cowards and won't fight 1v1. These things we know.

But I thought of it like this. If you pop an NPC and the wreck contains loot - they can steal it. Stealing constitutes taking items from a container that do not belong to you. Salvaged components are items. Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it. What it comes down to is them using a module to take your items from a container that you created by destroying an enemy. Anywhere else in EVE this is illegal and results in an aggression countdown. Why not with salvaging? Because some Dev somewhere wrote "CONCORD considers wrecks to be communal junk, anyone can have junk"? Seems legit...

And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. It seems a poorly balanced system where the people making their isk legitimately have absolutely no recourse or defense against having people blatantly steal from them. They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against. Balance the system, make it a fair fight.



I hate to tell you this but you are entirely wrong. You can't shoot a salvager, only a thief (or you will get concorded) for a start. The ownership mechanic is in fact broken the other way. Npcers are given an artificial ownership of loot drops. Why do npc wrecks belong to the player that destroys them? They should belong to the faction the npc belonged to and therefore fair game to anyone. This is how it works for player wrecks after all. But ccp have given npcers added protection, you would think it would be enough for them, but no they want ownership of the wrecks as well despite the fact wrecks are always fair game in all forms of eve.

Shooting a thief allows him and only him to fight back, no "buddies" can shoot you. He can come back in a pvp ship but then you don't need to be there when he comes back. Or you could go back in a pvp ship yourself and have a nice fight. Or your entire corp can since your corpmates can all shoot him while his can not do anything to you. Basically everything is in the wreck owners favour. You can choose whether to engage or not. If you do choose to agress you can change into the ship you want first. Your corpmates can help you while his are all limited (they can rep him but take no agressive action). The only
way you can be ganked is if you are stupid enough to steal from a flipped can, in which case you get what you deserve.
Elinarien
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-09-01 20:09:24 UTC
Sometimes I don't mind people helping themselves to salvage. For example today i was doing Angel Extrav on my main and I just could not be bothered to think about going back in the noctis and picking over the wrecks. So when I was joined in the last room by a salvager I just abandoned all the wrecks and said he could help himself. Seems such a shame to let it all go to waste.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-09-01 20:28:28 UTC
Jim Era wrote:
because OP is bad and can't take care of himself.


I would think it has more to do with this: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14266599

The LULZ Boat.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#111 - 2012-09-01 20:50:42 UTC
6/10 for 6 pages of troll food
Jax Bederen
Dark Horse RM
#112 - 2012-09-01 21:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jax Bederen
Elinarien wrote:
Sometimes I don't mind people helping themselves to salvage. For example today i was doing Angel Extrav on my main and I just could not be bothered to think about going back in the noctis and picking over the wrecks. So when I was joined in the last room by a salvager I just abandoned all the wrecks and said he could help himself. Seems such a shame to let it all go to waste.



I skip many also, but Angel extravaganza has some good salvage, plus there's that random implant that drops from the fourth room.
pussnheels
Viziam
#113 - 2012-09-01 21:46:45 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
Yes, they're annoying, yes they're carebears who prey on mission runners, and yes most of them are cowards and won't fight 1v1. These things we know.

But I thought of it like this. If you pop an NPC and the wreck contains loot - they can steal it. Stealing constitutes taking items from a container that do not belong to you. Salvaged components are items. Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it. What it comes down to is them using a module to take your items from a container that you created by destroying an enemy. Anywhere else in EVE this is illegal and results in an aggression countdown. Why not with salvaging? Because some Dev somewhere wrote "CONCORD considers wrecks to be communal junk, anyone can have junk"? Seems legit...

And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. It seems a poorly balanced system where the people making their isk legitimately have absolutely no recourse or defense against having people blatantly steal from them. They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against. Balance the system, make it a fair fight.


no no no either you are a absolute carebear or you are trolling, if somebody wants to invest his time and energy in 'stealing ' wrecks that his choice , if YOU want to shoot him that is your choice , if he comes back in a pvp ships and blows up youtr pimped mission runner it is your fault should have thought on it when you shot him
If you don't want ninja looters in your missions either find you a less populated system or change agent more frequintly
But whining about it on here about it will only bring those who ninja loot as a proffesion a nice smile on, their faces

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire
Thrym Garsk
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2012-09-01 22:06:48 UTC
I got suckered with this the other day, and my thoughts are a bit mixed. I took the bait and shot at the enemy ship that was engaging in the looting activity. Don't let the year old character fool anyone, my actual playtime is less than six months.

On the one hand, shame on the "veterans" that think that this is a novel and fun way to have a game played. A person is doing an NPC portion of the game and is not looking for and probably not even suitably fitted for a fight, and is in a high security place in which they are not planning to engage in such. On the other hand, PvP happens in EVE, though, so there is some measure of accepting that it will occur that a player must recognize and be willing to tolerate. "Fair play" is not an evolved concept in EVE, nor in its community.

This lack of fair play is a fine thing, school of hard knocks and all that rot. The problem lies in the security status aspect. In my case, the person doing this had a sec status in the 3's--no sec hit for a directly pirate like act. After it was all done, I'm left with no kill rights on him, nor the basilisk he warped in as assistance. The orca he warped in didn't even go red(I'm shady on what this was even used for as I don't know enough about it but he appeared to switch fits or craft on me at one point to gain an ECM), frankly I'd have had time to kill that or chase it off if it had.

The fact that I am unlikely to ever see any of these three craft in a non-high sec area, or even outside of a mission space for that matter, means I'll essentially never be able to retalitate.


So to make the story shorter, I think it is fine that a person can go through the trouble to scan down a mission and steal your loot, even if I feel no obligation to think highly of the player. I do not think it is fine that this happens without any mechanism for repurcussion or even mechanism to allow the player base to apply repursions.
Lord Arakkis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-09-01 22:37:03 UTC
Does the OP know that given the type of missions being run (I hope lvl 4s with this anger lol) that even with them salvaging, he would still make much more off of his bounties and mission rewards than the salvager?

Your still a child in the eyes of the universe
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-09-02 00:15:19 UTC
Thrym Garsk wrote:
I got suckered with this the other day, and my thoughts are a bit mixed. I took the bait and shot at the enemy ship that was engaging in the looting activity. Don't let the year old character fool anyone, my actual playtime is less than six months.

On the one hand, shame on the "veterans" that think that this is a novel and fun way to have a game played. A person is doing an NPC portion of the game and is not looking for and probably not even suitably fitted for a fight, and is in a high security place in which they are not planning to engage in such. On the other hand, PvP happens in EVE, though, so there is some measure of accepting that it will occur that a player must recognize and be willing to tolerate. "Fair play" is not an evolved concept in EVE, nor in its community.

This lack of fair play is a fine thing, school of hard knocks and all that rot. The problem lies in the security status aspect. In my case, the person doing this had a sec status in the 3's--no sec hit for a directly pirate like act. After it was all done, I'm left with no kill rights on him, nor the basilisk he warped in as assistance. The orca he warped in didn't even go red(I'm shady on what this was even used for as I don't know enough about it but he appeared to switch fits or craft on me at one point to gain an ECM), frankly I'd have had time to kill that or chase it off if it had.

The fact that I am unlikely to ever see any of these three craft in a non-high sec area, or even outside of a mission space for that matter, means I'll essentially never be able to retalitate.


So to make the story shorter, I think it is fine that a person can go through the trouble to scan down a mission and steal your loot, even if I feel no obligation to think highly of the player. I do not think it is fine that this happens without any mechanism for repurcussion or even mechanism to allow the player base to apply repursions.


I wouldn't expect you to think highly of looters. They're not exactly in it to make buddies with mission runners. But if you feel so strongly that you're on the losing end of this fight, it's because you're not aware of how the aggro works. You should look it up, or somehow find out all the ins and outs of what each person is allowed to do in this scenario.

Best thing for a mission runner to do would be to join a large, active high sec/mission runner corp. The npc corp you're in can't back you up if you get down and dirty with a pirate. But being in a corp where you can have near instant backup is a huge boost to the mission runner.

If you can mop up a pirate fast enough, you won't even have to worry about orcas coming in, or any other strange thing you might worry about. You'd be surprised how easy it is to just pop a looter before they can fight back much. They'll probaby bring back a pvp ship after that, so you can either fight him with ALL of your buddies, or go back to station for a few minutes, while aggro wears off.
Emily Radcliffe
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-09-02 00:22:45 UTC
☻/
/▌
/ \
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#118 - 2012-09-02 00:44:25 UTC
Let's do the time warp again!

Finally, a quality post! Cool

John Hancock
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-09-02 00:48:27 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Let's do the time warp again!

Finally, a quality post! Cool


Lmao.

Bless this threads's soul.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Doddy
Excidium.
#120 - 2012-09-02 01:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Thrym Garsk wrote:
I got suckered with this the other day, and my thoughts are a bit mixed. I took the bait and shot at the enemy ship that was engaging in the looting activity. Don't let the year old character fool anyone, my actual playtime is less than six months.

On the one hand, shame on the "veterans" that think that this is a novel and fun way to have a game played. A person is doing an NPC portion of the game and is not looking for and probably not even suitably fitted for a fight, and is in a high security place in which they are not planning to engage in such. On the other hand, PvP happens in EVE, though, so there is some measure of accepting that it will occur that a player must recognize and be willing to tolerate. "Fair play" is not an evolved concept in EVE, nor in its community.

This lack of fair play is a fine thing, school of hard knocks and all that rot. The problem lies in the security status aspect. In my case, the person doing this had a sec status in the 3's--no sec hit for a directly pirate like act. After it was all done, I'm left with no kill rights on him, nor the basilisk he warped in as assistance. The orca he warped in didn't even go red(I'm shady on what this was even used for as I don't know enough about it but he appeared to switch fits or craft on me at one point to gain an ECM), frankly I'd have had time to kill that or chase it off if it had.

The fact that I am unlikely to ever see any of these three craft in a non-high sec area, or even outside of a mission space for that matter, means I'll essentially never be able to retalitate.


So to make the story shorter, I think it is fine that a person can go through the trouble to scan down a mission and steal your loot, even if I feel no obligation to think highly of the player. I do not think it is fine that this happens without any mechanism for repurcussion or even mechanism to allow the player base to apply repursions.


You attack someone in in a pve ship you deserve what you get. Retaliation in eve is easy since you can find out where anyone is at any time.