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The Case for Removing Learning Implants

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#341 - 2012-09-01 16:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Suqq Madiq wrote:
LOL! Delicious tears. Thank you for that.

Keep crying about how expensive it is to fund your supercapital fleet and how unworthy your noobs are to see any of that ISK in their pockets and how hard it is for you and them to fund PVPing with learning implants and also how hard it is to setup jump clones.

Keep pretending you dont care waht Eve University does while you troll their channels day in and day out recruiting from their ranks and giving their noobs awful, terrible advice. And dont stop responding to me despite how irrelevant I am.

And, lastly, keep coming up with the terrible ******* ideas that even the people on your own terrible mouthpiece propaganda website will downvote into oblivion even before it reaches the masses of the Eve Forums. Come on, really, how pathetic do you feel when even the goons and testicls on that awful site wont back up your awful idea. You should be ashamed of yourself.


keep crying about our site, it's hilarious!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#342 - 2012-09-01 16:17:26 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
still with no compelling argument as to why Nullsec should have this particular risk removed beyond "aderp, cuz it halps us peeveepee, aderp".

this is actually a valid argument and the phrasing of your sentence indicates that you believe it is a 'compelling argument'

thankyou for your support
Suqq Madiq
#343 - 2012-09-01 16:18:33 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#344 - 2012-09-01 16:19:59 UTC
I love it when highsec/lowsec chars say "I PVP in +5s/5% hardwirings all the time, maybe you just suck at PVP".

Yeah, let me know when that becomes relevant to the discussion.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Suqq Madiq
#345 - 2012-09-01 16:21:09 UTC
Andski wrote:
keep crying about our site, it's hilarious!


But i thought it wasnt your site? I thought it was a bastion of unbiased and balanced "news reporting" unlike the ebil bad men who neber tell the truth about goons and test and everybody else who they arent affiliated with.

Thanks for lifting the veil off that bunch of obvious lies and propaganda.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2012-09-01 16:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruken Marr
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.


What do you think is the first thing I tell noobies who complain about the price of +5s?
Suqq Madiq
#347 - 2012-09-01 16:21:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I love it when highsec/lowsec chars say "I PVP in +5s/5% hardwirings all the time, maybe you just suck at PVP".

Yeah, let me know when that becomes relevant to the discussion.


Nobody said that.

Let us know when you're done being an idiot.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2012-09-01 16:22:46 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.

So in other words, what you're saying is that people who PVP where they can be podded should be punished for it by either having to buy new +5s all the time, train SP slower than people who sit in hisec and do nothing but grind missions or rocks, or have to forego the occasional PVP because their jumpclone is still on cooldown.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Suqq Madiq
#349 - 2012-09-01 16:23:07 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.


What do you think is the first thing I tell noobies who complain about the price of +5s?


I dont know Aruken? What do you tell them? HTFU? Stop crying? Go back to highsec? Steal mommy's credit card and buy some PLEX? How should I know what terrible advice you're offering to the idiots you hang around with?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2012-09-01 16:24:06 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Andski wrote:
keep crying about our site, it's hilarious!


But i thought it wasnt your site? I thought it was a bastion of unbiased and balanced "news reporting" unlike the ebil bad men who neber tell the truth about goons and test and everybody else who they arent affiliated with.

Thanks for lifting the veil off that bunch of obvious lies and propaganda.

ITT: The guys who run the site can't claim it's their site, because then all the content which people in the SoCo has written suddenly turns into obvious lies and propaganda.

The more you know.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Suqq Madiq
#351 - 2012-09-01 16:24:33 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.

So in other words, what you're saying is that people who PVP where they can be podded should be punished for it by either having to buy new +5s all the time, train SP slower than people who sit in hisec and do nothing but grind missions or rocks, or have to forego the occasional PVP because their jumpclone is still on cooldown.


So, what you're saying is, people who intentionally PVP where they put their pods in greater danger than the rest of EVE should have the mechanics of the entire game changed to suit their playstyle and diminish the risks they take every time they undock or waddle out of range of the POS shields?

COOOoooool.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#352 - 2012-09-01 16:26:04 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Andski wrote:
keep crying about our site, it's hilarious!


But i thought it wasnt your site? I thought it was a bastion of unbiased and balanced "news reporting" unlike the ebil bad men who neber tell the truth about goons and test and everybody else who they arent affiliated with.

Thanks for lifting the veil off that bunch of obvious lies and propaganda.


oh no, we might not retain the readership of the sockpuppet eve-o poster demographic

we are screwed

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#353 - 2012-09-01 16:27:11 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.

So in other words, what you're saying is that people who PVP where they can be podded should be punished for it by either having to buy new +5s all the time, train SP slower than people who sit in hisec and do nothing but grind missions or rocks, or have to forego the occasional PVP because their jumpclone is still on cooldown.

Yes.

This argument is extraordinarily similar to the "AFK cloakers stop me from ratting" argument. AFK cloakers aren't stopping anything from happening, you are choosing not to rat due to the risk of the AFK cloaker killing you. Learning implants aren't stopping pvp from happening, you are choosing not to pvp due to the total cost of your clone/potential losses. It is no different from choosing not to pvp because you don't have a cheap enough ship, you don't like your corp/alliance's reimbursement policy, etc. If you want pvp where pretty much nothing will stop you from pvping, play on the test server.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#354 - 2012-09-01 16:27:49 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I love it when highsec/lowsec chars say "I PVP in +5s/5% hardwirings all the time, maybe you just suck at PVP".

Yeah, let me know when that becomes relevant to the discussion.


Nobody said that.

Let us know when you're done being an idiot.

Someone probably has - they have in other threads. If not, they were bound to.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#355 - 2012-09-01 16:30:15 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.


What do you think is the first thing I tell noobies who complain about the price of +5s?


I dont know Aruken? What do you tell them? HTFU? Stop crying? Go back to highsec? Steal mommy's credit card and buy some PLEX? How should I know what terrible advice you're offering to the idiots you hang around with?


I suggest you read something about rhetoric. I tell them +5s aren't necessary. I also tell them about jump clones. But that's obviously easy to say once you've already got all those lengthy support skills done. Then we roll back to the learning skills argument as the same could be said for those. They weren't needed to train skills but I'm pretty damn sure it was the first thing everybody bothered training.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#356 - 2012-09-01 16:31:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
Aruken Marr wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
It's all about progression. Newbies shouldn't be flying around in +4/+5s when they could barely afford them in the first place. Stick +1s up to +3s in depending on what you can afford to replace and move up to the higher level implants when you can afford to replace them. Change your mentality about implants, not the mechanic.


Why should newbies be punished for being new?

I get it. You're gonna say "In that case why not just let them hop straight into a BS?!" It's not the same. Being new doesnt restrict their ability to pvp (as they can do it in a frigate) but implants prevent them from training skills at peak rates where as a point on a frigate stops a ship warping off as good as any other ship. This is like the learning skills argument all over again. Its like saying you need to earn a certain amount of isk for +4s so that you can start training skills like everyone else. It's become that much of a necessity these days it prevents some players from venturing out of hisec. It's not so much about their risk aversion but more about bad habits and a poor mentality acquired during the first few months of playing.

I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s but I remember it was an issue as a low sp player because sp/hr was all important. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


Its a progression thing. You don't want newbies to rush to a BS who don't know how to properly fly it nor afford to lose it, that's why you go through the paces. Eve isn't about instant gratification, its not about streamlining to the top. You work your way up. Having newbies think that they NEED to be inline with players who are 5-6 year vets is a poor mentality and argument. That's usually where most fail and end up quitting. They see everyone else in a T3 or BS and rush too it, get it blown up then they are broke. That's not a game mechanic problem that's a mentality issue. Same goes for implants.

Once again if you do bump attributes up +5 and remove learning implants, then people will just look at that as baseline and want more ways to speed it up, it would be a endless cycle. So look at non implant speed as normal and any increase is a bonus, not mandatory.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2012-09-01 16:38:53 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
I dont care so much about skill training times now as I usually just use +3s. I worry more about it presenting a problem to newer players who think that you need to have +5s to be level with everyone else.


If the noobs you hang around with think they need +5s then you're doing a terrible job of educating them. A pair of +3 implants costs, at most, 20 million ISK. If they can't afford that or can't figure out how to install a jump clone they don't deserve implants.

So in other words, what you're saying is that people who PVP where they can be podded should be punished for it by either having to buy new +5s all the time, train SP slower than people who sit in hisec and do nothing but grind missions or rocks, or have to forego the occasional PVP because their jumpclone is still on cooldown.


So, what you're saying is, people who intentionally PVP where they put their pods in greater danger than the rest of EVE should have the mechanics of the entire game changed to suit their playstyle and diminish the risks they take every time they undock or waddle out of range of the POS shields?

COOOoooool.

So, what you're saying is, you don't want to even listen to ideas such as "remove learning implants, boost base stats" or "be able to unplug implants" because oh god it was suggested by people from nullsec.

Okay, then.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Suqq Madiq
#358 - 2012-09-01 16:43:31 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
So, what you're saying is, you don't want to even listen to ideas such as "remove learning implants, boost base stats" or "be able to unplug implants" because oh god it was suggested by people from nullsec.

Okay, then.


No, I listened to it alright. I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons. Not because it was proposed by somebody from nullsec, it's just terrible in it's own right. That it benefits nullsec more than the rest of EVE is self-evident. That nullsec residents are crying for nerfs to all of EVE to benefit their style of gaming really isn't surprising as you do it all the time. That's not me being biased against nullsec, that's me being unbiased. Unlike, you know, the rag that this terrible idea came from.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2012-09-01 16:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruken Marr
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Its a progression thing. You don't want newbies to rush to a BS who don't know how to properly fly it nor afford to lose it, that's why you go through the paces. Eve isn't about instant gratification, its not about streamlining to the top. You work your way up. Having newbies think that they NEED to be inline with players who are 5-6 year vets is a poor mentality and argument. That's usually where most fail and end up quitting. They see everyone else in a T3 or BS and rush too it, get it blown up then they are broke. That's not a game mechanic problem that's a mentality issue. Same goes for implants.

Once again if you do bump attributes up +5 and remove learning implants, then people will just look at that as baseline and want more ways to speed it up, it would be a endless cycle. So look at non implant speed as normal and any increase is a bonus, not mandatory.


You're right. It is bad attitude, hence I pointed it out as one. It's something becomes easier to get over the longer you play because you begin acquire the skills you need. I understand where you're coming from with gradual progression. I understand that, that is part of the purpose of implants.

Gradual progression applies well to pvp as you can still perform an effective role at one thing as newbie and as you progress you more options open up to you. All implants do is provide a means to train a skill faster (skills that new players are already lacking.) I just feel that it's an necessary handicap to new players and adds nothing to the game other than reward the risk averse.

Lord Zim wrote:

So, what you're saying is, you don't want to even listen to ideas such as "remove learning implants, boost base stats" or "be able to unplug implants" because oh god it was suggested by people from nullsec.

Okay, then.


What? You mean "because nullsec" isn't a legitimate argument anymore?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2012-09-01 16:45:10 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons.

And what are these "obvious reasons"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat