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The Vigilant
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Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#21 - 2012-08-31 18:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
Roderick Grey wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The answer is to adopt the Podla Drake philosophy. If you're in hull you're already ******. Drop the DC for a MFS.

-Liang

Ed: Also, an XL ASB on a kiting ship may be sacrificing too much. You shouldn't really be taking that much damage. The longevity of the XL is undeniable though. Those cap charges last forever on kiting setups.


I think it's more for the resists (shield), which are very important on an active tank.

Off topic: Why do you insist on having a signature outside of your signature, we know you're liang, your name is right there to the left.


Bingo. it's 10.5-12.5% shield resists.

Also the taranis would like to disagree with your argument on this particular occasion.

And yes the booster is about longevity. Being able to tank drones til they are dead or slow-boat out of range of a larger ship can decide fights. being in a pure passive kiting ship is slowly dieing - and also in the case of the vigilant sometimes the tank is good to get into range in the first place. The vagabond/cynabal aren't doing great now that tier 3 BC's are out.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#22 - 2012-08-31 18:48:22 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

I think it's more for the resists (shield), which are very important on an active tank.


There are three kinds of tanking:
- Mitigation tank (resists)
- Avoidance tank (make most of the damage miss)
- Repair tank (fix it when they hit you)

You're suggesting a mitigation+repair tank while I'm suggesting an avoidance+repair tank. No resist T1 ASB tanks work fine (kiting or not), mostly because of the raw power of the ASB. A while back, I engaged:
Talos, Oracle vs Domi, Drake, Ishkur, Executioner

The Talos "tanked" them for a long time before being briefly forced off the field. Mostly via avoidance.

Quote:

Off topic: Why do you insist on having a signature outside of your signature, we know you're liang, your name is right there to the left.


Because, I do.

-Liang


I'm sorry but how does replacing a DC with an MFS make it anymore of an avoidance tank than it already is?

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#23 - 2012-08-31 23:32:04 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:

I'm sorry but how does replacing a DC with an MFS make it anymore of an avoidance tank than it already is?


What good does the DC do? Some minor shield resistance? Some big hull resist? If you're in Hull, you're doing it wrong.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Noisrevbus
#24 - 2012-09-01 01:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Guys, you are at that point where the details are getting ridiculous.

They all (nano, damage, reach, cap, dc) have some merit while the ship at large have some glaring holes.

The most important thing to remember is that any shield setup on the Vigi is very volatile. It's a snap-ship and it rely alot on breaking out of killzones and hit it's optimal. In light of that, hull resists have more value than you give it credit. I don't disqualify any ideas you've had so far, but don't fall into the trap of arguing details like ASB + DC for the shield resists, that's hardly it. ASB + DC over the fact that you'll have virtually no buffer with an ASB on and that the ship have alot of hull on the other hand...

In that regard it's also a bit odd that you brushed over the various armor options so quickly. Not that using the massive damage bonus, falloff bonus or plentiful lowslots for position-control would be bad by any stretch, but the armor options are the only ones that offer some form of different dynamic to the ship.

Active armor may be untrendy in light of the ASB hoot. The slot layout is perfect for it though, combined with the generous base speed and the mentioned bonuses. Not because you'd rep more, but it plugs one glaring hole not adressed in this detail argument: a 1500 cap buffer over a -10+/s usage with no slots for "oh crap". A single lick of neut can leave you dead in the water, especially on a setup that entirely rely on the combination of running both MWD and weapons to cut free. Keep in mind that picking fights usually entail escaping the ones you don't want.

Plated setups are interesting because it allow a different playstyle. I can see it's still common to misplace "slower" with "slow", while few people see the appeal in a proper brick tank that can fully utilize the web-bonus (for more than snapping frigs). It obviously gain merit when you go into small gang and can afford a logi ontop, but even in solo-esque gameplay (note: not true solo because most would be inclined to run shield or active there) there's appeal to running your cap down low for a catch and then just play to your strengths while covering your drawbacks. Then minor details such as odd licks swing the other way around as well, since a single puff of cap will give you alot while some minor neuting cause you little.

Personally, i consider the shield-solo setups to be a bit of waste, since there are so many other ships with appealing speed, falloff and burst. What you pay for on the hull is primarily the web-bonus (or the total sum) so i'd be more prone to run the ship small-gang in a support role than true solo relying on extremes.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#25 - 2012-09-01 01:17:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

I'm sorry but how does replacing a DC with an MFS make it anymore of an avoidance tank than it already is?


What good does the DC do? Some minor shield resistance? Some big hull resist? If you're in Hull, you're doing it wrong.

-Liang


You didn't answer my question.

And the DC allows some room for error, as I'm new to the Vigilant I will probably make some errors that the DC might be able to hold me through in order to escape.

Don't get me wrong a extra damage is great in the right hands, however as I'm a newer player it would make sense for me to have some buffer.

Again I repeat, I'm new to the Vigilant, so yes I may end up in hull because I have "done it wrong."

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#26 - 2012-09-01 01:28:50 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
Guys, you are at that point where the details are getting ridiculous.

They all (nano, damage, reach, cap, dc) have some merit while the ship at large have some glaring holes.

The most important thing to remember is that any shield setup on the Vigi is very volatile. It's a snap-ship and it rely alot on breaking out of killzones and hit it's optimal. In light of that, hull resists have more value than you give it credit. I don't disqualify any ideas you've had so far, but don't fall into the trap of arguing details like ASB + DC for the shield resists, that's hardly it. ASB + DC over the fact that you'll have virtually no buffer with an ASB on and that the ship have alot of hull on the other hand...

In that regard it's also a bit odd that you brushed over the various armor options so quickly. Not that using the massive damage bonus, falloff bonus or plentiful lowslots for position-control would be bad by any stretch, but the armor options are the only ones that offer some form of different dynamic to the ship.

Active armor may be untrendy in light of the ASB hoot. The slot layout is perfect for it though, combined with the generous base speed and the mentioned bonuses. Not because you'd rep more, but it plugs one glaring hole not adressed in this detail argument: a 1500 cap buffer over a -10+/s usage with no slots for "oh crap". A single lick of neut can leave you dead in the water, especially on a setup that entirely rely on the combination of running both MWD and weapons to cut free. Keep in mind that picking fights usually entail escaping the ones you don't want.

Plated setups are interesting because it allow a different playstyle. I can see it's still common to misplace "slower" with "slow", while few people see the appeal in a proper brick tank that can fully utilize the web-bonus (for more than snapping frigs). It obviously gain merit when you go into small gang and can afford a logi ontop, but even in solo-esque gameplay (note: not true solo because most would be inclined to run shield or active there) there's appeal to running your cap down low for a catch and then just play to your strengths while covering your drawbacks. Then minor details such as odd licks swing the other way around as well, since a single puff of cap will give you alot while some minor neuting cause you little.

Personally, i consider the shield-solo setups to be a bit of waste, since there are so many other ships with appealing speed, falloff and burst. What you pay for on the hull is primarily the web-bonus (or the total sum) so i'd be more prone to run the ship small-gang in a support role than true solo relying on extremes.


So you're saying the Vigilant is more of a supplement to small man armor gangs?

And thanks for the excellent response.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Noisrevbus
#27 - 2012-09-01 02:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
I'm saying that's how i would use it.

The shield setups definately do work, but between other similar options and extreme situationality i do not favour them myself.

In more controlled environments (low target pools) that volatility can appeal, and make the ship exciting to fly. Using a home-court advantage or close-region familiarity for example can make them quite entertaining to steal some kills in (grab scouts or stragglers as hostile gangs pass through or w/e). If you have a fair idea of what's going on around you, you can play to the offensive strengths, even if you fly defensively relative your targets.

In unknown surroundings with much more uncertainties to consider it's much less appealing to have a volatile ship. It's good at executing when in control but it's not good when rattled, if that makes any sense. If you lose control you don't have the staying power to retake it (single cycles of certain modules can ruin your day).

You'll understand what i mean the first time a sniper land a lucky hit, a Curse land on grid or a Rapier decloaks - even if you had perfect control before that, and move to disengage straight away (ie., react to build more distance and escape the killzone). Even if you do everything right you could instantly be maimed so bad that you can't re-engage (or even escape). Many other similar concepts (Vagas et. al.) can usually push through a cycle or two of suboptimal conditions, to make comebacks and re-establish control without leaving the grid.

That go as much for ASB on Cruisers in general as it does putting them on Vigis or flying Vigis to begin with. I'm not fond of ASB on Cruisers, because a competent foe will counter the extremes.

It's late, im starting to make even less sense, i can feel it myself - i'll quit while i'm ahead P.

What you could do is listen to BSB18 and hear how they reason around the idea of good fights and uncertainties.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#28 - 2012-09-01 04:08:23 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

I'm sorry but how does replacing a DC with an MFS make it anymore of an avoidance tank than it already is?


What good does the DC do? Some minor shield resistance? Some big hull resist? If you're in Hull, you're doing it wrong.

-Liang


You didn't answer my question.

And the DC allows some room for error, as I'm new to the Vigilant I will probably make some errors that the DC might be able to hold me through in order to escape.

Don't get me wrong a extra damage is great in the right hands, however as I'm a newer player it would make sense for me to have some buffer.

Again I repeat, I'm new to the Vigilant, so yes I may end up in hull because I have "done it wrong."


No, removing the DC for a MFS doesn't change what kind of tank you're running. It simply lowers your overall tank in favor of other (more desirable) attributes. But let me spell it out to you very clearly then: if your XL ASB Vigilant is in hull, you're already ******.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#29 - 2012-09-01 04:10:13 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
Guys, you are at that point where the details are getting ridiculous.

They all (nano, damage, reach, cap, dc) have some merit while the ship at large have some glaring holes.

The most important thing to remember is that any shield setup on the Vigi is very volatile. It's a snap-ship and it rely alot on breaking out of killzones and hit it's optimal. In light of that, hull resists have more value than you give it credit. I don't disqualify any ideas you've had so far, but don't fall into the trap of arguing details like ASB + DC for the shield resists, that's hardly it. ASB + DC over the fact that you'll have virtually no buffer with an ASB on and that the ship have alot of hull on the other hand...

In that regard it's also a bit odd that you brushed over the various armor options so quickly. Not that using the massive damage bonus, falloff bonus or plentiful lowslots for position-control would be bad by any stretch, but the armor options are the only ones that offer some form of different dynamic to the ship.

Active armor may be untrendy in light of the ASB hoot. The slot layout is perfect for it though, combined with the generous base speed and the mentioned bonuses. Not because you'd rep more, but it plugs one glaring hole not adressed in this detail argument: a 1500 cap buffer over a -10+/s usage with no slots for "oh crap". A single lick of neut can leave you dead in the water, especially on a setup that entirely rely on the combination of running both MWD and weapons to cut free. Keep in mind that picking fights usually entail escaping the ones you don't want.

Plated setups are interesting because it allow a different playstyle. I can see it's still common to misplace "slower" with "slow", while few people see the appeal in a proper brick tank that can fully utilize the web-bonus (for more than snapping frigs). It obviously gain merit when you go into small gang and can afford a logi ontop, but even in solo-esque gameplay (note: not true solo because most would be inclined to run shield or active there) there's appeal to running your cap down low for a catch and then just play to your strengths while covering your drawbacks. Then minor details such as odd licks swing the other way around as well, since a single puff of cap will give you alot while some minor neuting cause you little.

Personally, i consider the shield-solo setups to be a bit of waste, since there are so many other ships with appealing speed, falloff and burst. What you pay for on the hull is primarily the web-bonus (or the total sum) so i'd be more prone to run the ship small-gang in a support role than true solo relying on extremes.


Give me some credit here. I've got a lot of experience flying paper thin nano setups. The DC is a waste. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Gary Bell
Therapy.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2012-09-01 11:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gary Bell
Just for the record I fly one of these and i enjoy it. I run MWD, RF disrupt, 2 Large extenders. Then in lows 2 nanos, 2 Mag Stabs, and 2 Tracking Enhancers. Oh and of course Neutrons in the highs. You just need to pick your targets and know how to fly a nano ship.. Even a Cynabal would have trouble kiting you if you pull away from him, then double back... About 15 Seconds under 10 kms and cynabal is dead. Mine pumps out about 900 dps and can land decent dps with null... I also t2 shield rig it..

Just my point of view... not all bonuses have to be used
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#31 - 2012-09-01 12:09:59 UTC
Vigilant.....small gang yes, solo hunter umm nope, do yourself a favor and get into a T3, your better off.

......................................................
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-09-01 12:11:40 UTC
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Well thats an easy one to be honest, yes its great. Its combination of web bonus and DPS is litterally insane. But when you say PVP you have to take cost and risk in mind. That said is it worth the price difference over a normal Thorax or a Deimos...

Nah in most cases it isnt, if you'd fly one I'd be very careful because people will get in line to take a shot at you...



Specially with T1 resists, it's just a juicy loot piñata/KM unless in a decent gang and not primaries.

brb
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-09-01 12:37:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
i dont normally use DCUs on shield fit ships, because as liang as already stated quite mercilessly, if you are in hull you are farked.

The defense of "but it buys some time if i make a mistake", thing, that if you had more dps or could move faster, you would be able to punch your way out or fly your way out easier. So a bit of a moot point, since in hull means seconds to live where as more dps means more dps all the way upto you being in hull.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-09-01 12:43:43 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
i dont normally use DCUs on shield fit ships, because as liang as already stated quite mercilessly, if you are in hull you are farked.

The defense of "but it buys some time if i make a mistake", thing, that if you had more dps or could move faster, you would be able to punch your way out or fly your way out easier. So a bit of a moot point, since in hull means seconds to live where as more dps means more dps all the way upto you being in hull.


+1
Something that can't shoot you can't harm you.

brb
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#35 - 2012-09-01 13:13:51 UTC
Swapping 2x TE's for a magstab and a nano IMO is easy to see as a bad choice. Swapping a DC for a magstab is personal choice.

A magstab is always helping you whereas a DC only helps you when coming under fire. The main reason i would lean towards this is due to the ASB. All that extra EHP from the DC can allow your ASB to reload if you are unable to get off the field (for example i you are caught by an interceptor with a disruptor range bonus who can easily kite you).

I'll break it down as this:

A magstab is always useful
a DC is sometimes pointless but sometimes better than a magstab.

My choice is the DC because i've died more times trying to get out of effective range of a ship and warp than i have to 'not having enough dps' - so the EHP is my choice over the DPS.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#36 - 2012-09-01 13:42:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

I'm sorry but how does replacing a DC with an MFS make it anymore of an avoidance tank than it already is?


What good does the DC do? Some minor shield resistance? Some big hull resist? If you're in Hull, you're doing it wrong.

-Liang


You didn't answer my question.

And the DC allows some room for error, as I'm new to the Vigilant I will probably make some errors that the DC might be able to hold me through in order to escape.

Don't get me wrong a extra damage is great in the right hands, however as I'm a newer player it would make sense for me to have some buffer.

Again I repeat, I'm new to the Vigilant, so yes I may end up in hull because I have "done it wrong."


No, removing the DC for a MFS doesn't change what kind of tank you're running. It simply lowers your overall tank in favor of other (more desirable) attributes. But let me spell it out to you very clearly then: if your XL ASB Vigilant is in hull, you're already ******.

-Liang


I don't understand how you're not getting this.

I know that if you're in hull you're in trouble, but it's not just for hull, it's for armor and shield as-well, yes it's minor but it's better than a MFS in MY CASE

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#37 - 2012-09-01 13:48:49 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:

The defense of "but it buys some time if i make a mistake", thing, that if you had more dps or could move faster, you would be able to punch your way out or fly your way out easier. So a bit of a moot point, since in hull means seconds to live where as more dps means more dps all the way upto you being in hull.


In some cases yeah, but if you're fighting a guy 1v1 and suddenly a falcon warps in that MFS will count for jack, however extra speed might be an idea...

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-09-01 13:49:19 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:

*glides over good points*


20% more damage they die 20% faster.

you having 10% more tank means you last 10% longer.

in what way is it better exactly to have the 10%?

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#39 - 2012-09-01 14:17:49 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

*glides over good points*


20% more damage they die 20% faster.

you having 10% more tank means you last 10% longer.

in what way is it better exactly to have the 10%?


When you can't deal damage or pick an incorrect engagement and NEED to leave.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2012-09-01 17:15:41 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:

I don't understand how you're not getting this.

I know that if you're in hull you're in trouble, but it's not just for hull, it's for armor and shield as-well, yes it's minor but it's better than a MFS in MY CASE


Because it won't be, even in your case.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
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